It’s not a secret the church has been in decline for a number of years and for a variety of reasons. You can read some statistics and views on why, here and here and here. Everyone has their opinions.
Abuse, apostasy, and irrelevance are just a few of the words that keep coming up in the search for reasons for the decline. There are a variety of compelling opinions and I even have a few of my own.
But I suggest there is another area of decline more significant and perhaps much less obvious—and one that certainly contributes to the church’s decline in North America.
I think its likely a careful analysis would implicate modern church leadership for this more significant issue.
In other words, I’m concerned about the decline of authentic pastoral care and its effect on the decline of the church overall.
By saying so, I’m not suggesting this pastor has it all together. Nor am I trying to cultivate (or ratify) some dishonest skeptics’ contempt for the church. Rather, I’m hoping to raise these concerns to offer some biblical perspective on authentic pastoral care.
Before I begin, I’m not claiming to be the expert in all church issues, but I have served in various pastoral roles for more than twenty years and feel I can offer some measure of insight about the issue.
So in an effort to pursue this conversation in a healthy way, here are 10 pastors I’m concerned about.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who is better at managing church programs than he is at making disciples of Jesus. Thom Rainer & Eric Geiger addressed this topic somewhat in the book Simple Church, but I’m not sure how many pastors paid attention to the message. The church is not better because it has more programs. It’s quite possible for programs to hinder its real mission.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who attracts people with fancy self-help sermons instead of teaching people to be students of the Bible and theology. Sure topical sermons can be helpful teaching tools when used appropriately and in moderation. But to pique the interest of the unchurched, church-growth advocates have promoted episodic sermons ad nauseam and to no avail at effectively grounding deeply committed disciples of Jesus, as the statistics provided previously demonstrate.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who is a chief executive instead of a contemplative sage. The pastor is called to a contemplative life of prayer and study of the word (Acts 6:4 cf. Ephesians 4:11-16). From that life, his ministry flows to the church. The pastor was never called to be a rock-star communicator or bench-mark business leader. He was called to model redemption and shepherd the flock of God (1 Peter 5:1-4 cf. Acts 20:28). Perhaps those serious about pastoral care should consider putting away the John Maxwell and Nelson Searcy books and pick up the Bible and the church fathers again.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who uses the pulpit to milk members instead of minister to the saints. It was the angry atheist, Richard Dawkins, who asked Ted Haggard (back in the day) why he needed a multi-million dollar sound system that paralleled that of MTV to teach people about God. I think that’s a question that deserves an answer. Why do pastors need to build bigger and better on the backs of God’s people? I think the answer may be rooted in the human heart. Francis Chan seemed to have caught that vision when he was still pastor in Simi Valley. And if we think we need to build bigger barns, perhaps we should pray about church planting as a viable alternative.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who makes growing the church the goal instead of glorifying God the goal. There is no biblical mandate for growing the church. Sure there is one for propagating the gospel and making disciples. But the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. There is nothing in Scripture, except pride, that drives pastors to drive the flocks they are supposed to be tending. This is the very opposite of pastoral care.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who builds his ministry with people instead of building people by his ministry. It seems I’ve said this already, just differently. But here I’m speaking to a philosophy that often underlies many of the abuses in the church. For example, a well-known mega-church pastor once advised me to think of people in seven-year terms. He explained that people generally burn out after seven years. And if I wanted to build a big ministry for God, I would need to leverage those seven years. Funny, I don’t recall God asking pastors to leverage his people for the pastor’s dream of building a big church for God.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who cultivates a culture of dependency on himself instead of cultivating a culture of community within the church. Of course, I’m not denying spiritual dependency on Christ is biblical. But the pastor is not the people’s savior. He’s a just man who will burn out and fail himself given enough time and responsibility. Christians should be taught to depend on Jesus as our Savior, the church as our sanctifying community, the Bible as our word from God, and the Spirit as our parakletos.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who reads and teaches the Bible literally instead of literarily. This in no way suggests the Bible is any less God’s word. It is to say the Bible is literature, divine literature to be sure, but literature nonetheless. That means it needs to be read and understood as God’s word to us (or for us) in the context of its literary genre. Not all the Bible is prescriptive, and none of it was written to be used as a random list of verses cherry-picked capriciously to beat people up or defend our personal ideas and beliefs. The Bible is the holy canon which reveals God to us through the person and work of Jesus Christ. Pastors who mishandle God’s word are extremely dangerous and will not offer appropriate pastoral care.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who contributes to the culture of consumerism instead of combating idolatry. Pastors who pander to the consumerism in the church are no different than parents who give their kids everything they want to keep them from throwing a fit or to get them to reciprocate love. Christianity isn’t a smorgasbord where people get to pick and choose what they like or don’t. It’s a community of believers on a journey and mission of faith who live in communitas with others for the glory of God, the blessing of his people, and the advancement of his kingdom.
- I’m concerned about the pastor who sees the church as a stepping stone instead of seeing it as a custodian of Christ’s kingdom. Certainly, God moves people. And certainly, pastors have a right to pursue other ventures as the Lord leads and gives liberty. But the church is the primary agent for the stewardship of the gospel and the redemption of the cosmos. It’s the integral institution for advancing Christ’s kingdom and for shaping culture and society. It’s not God’s second-hand agency. It’s not his “Plan B.” Jesus died for the church and it is significant.
There you have it: 10 of my concerns about pastors. If you’re concerned about biblical pastoral care, I hope this helps raise good questions we can ask.
As a pastor I really appreciated this blog brother! Thank you!
Glad it was a blessing, Larry. Thanks for reading. Blessings.
Scott you sound like a nice guy with genuine concerns, the humanity of Christ’s Church never ceases to amaze. After 35 years of ministry I strongly urge young leaders to give themselves to God and give God to the people, always knowing that message comes through a filter of past influences, teachings and contemporaries. I am certain God is at work in Las Vegas with men and women of God like you and your wife leading the charge.
Paul, Thanks for weighing in on this post. And what a blessing you have served 35 years in ministry. I’m sure we could all learn a lot from you. I appreciate how you said, “I strongly urge young leaders to give themselves to God and give God to the people…” That’s sound advice. Thank you. Peace and Grace.
I really enjoyed this writing. Thank you all for sharing. We all remember Jesus as instructing as follows go into the world and preach the good news of the gospel and baptize in his name I think that about covers it. God Bless you all for your wonderful work in Christ Jesus
Great words here brother. I’m Pastor at a small church in Tennessee. There have been issues w pastors before me and it seems to me the problem was the pastors were doing exactly what you’ve mentioned here. I’m just trying to stay out of the way and let God lead
PASTORAL I was so blessed challanges and refires by your this article. I will post the all the points on my social media.
Scott, every single point is gold. These issues can come up in large churches and small ones, Arminian or Calvinist or any other doctrine, and whether the pastor is a man or a woman. thanks for laying it out so clearly here.
Cheers,
Tim
P.S. At the risk of shameless self-promotion, here’s something I wrote on #8 (reading the Bible literarily) a while back, in case anyone’s interested.
Tim, you’re absolutely right. I think it transcends dogma because it boils down to our self-deceptive human hearts. And BTW, great post on reading the Bible literarily! I loved the statement: “a lot of people in God’s kingdom seem to drop their hermeneutics on the table like a 16-pound bowling ball.” Just loved it!
Feel free to use that line any time, with or without attribution, Scott!
your blog is not yet up and running BRO
I can’t see the article you wrote but would very much like to
Scott, thanks for those insights. I agree with you on every point of the 10.
Danny Daniels, Pastor, Pathway Community Church, Las Vegas, Nevada.
You’re welcome, Danny. Thanks for reading. Be blessed!
I’m getting more and more concerned about “Andrew Green Ministries.”
Any thoughts?
He’s gaining considerable popularity on Facebook. I think a new face of the Prosperity Gospel. His “testimony” and “look” is often what draws people in. Easily relatable for many.
Maybe take a look.
Hello brother pastor. Praying continues from India
You may well have been writing about pastors in Nigeria. With your kind permission, I’ll attempt to adapt your insightful piece to an increasingly confusing church scenario. God bless you!
You have my permission to use it any way that will help the Kingdom of God! Blessings, my friend!
Ok. Agreed. No problem with your top 10. I would simply suggest another 10 for the church member’s neglect. Most churches are not run by a single pastor but influentical members or boards.
That’s true, Eric. Thanks for raising that issue. No doubt, that’s the other side of the coin. Blessings.
You summed up my thoughts completely. I grew up in the church… my Dad was a pastor, spent summer vacations sitting in conferences coloring under the chair instead of quality time with my family. We raised our kids in the church (except for the last one) and feel very sad that we have not been a part of a church for six years now. We are in a church-saturated city, but cannot find one that is not governed by church politics, cliques, tithe-hammering, basket passing, sign up sheets that just totally burn us out. We love the Lord with all of our hearts, but we now spend Sundays at the beach, and just volunteer for charities we are passionate about, and interestingly, run into HIS body there. Great article.
Alice, Thank you so much for commenting. I can totally see where you are coming from. As with anything, the church in North America has created a sort of pseudo-counter culture–one that appears to be different, but is really just a Christianized re-branding of American consumerism. That often leaves a sour taste in people’s mouths. We need a revival of authenticity for sure. Ultimately, as strained and ragged as she is sometimes, the church is the bride of Christ and we believers are called to live in authentic community with one another. I pray your family finds a faith community where you can worship and serve in sincerity and truth without the extra-biblical pressures of men’s agendas. Blessings to you and yours.
Pastor Scott, I enjoyed your article tremendously. I’m specifically concerned about a pastor who uses “Rapha” and then his name.i could go on, but I don’t want to make it public.
What are your thoughts please? I pray you get to see this. Blessings Ali
Wonderful article, and sadly, my family contributes to the numbers of decline in church membership. After visiting so many churches in our area, we gave up as it was too stressful. Cliques, politics, agendas… but NO real relationships after years. We quit church. Now we just volunteer with organizations who are serving our community, and we find more “church life” there than anywhere inside a church building!
Alice, sometimes the church building is a cover for a lot of personal kingdom building. It’s the body of believers, the followers of Christ in covenant with one another, that is the authentic church. Thanks again for commenting. Blessings!
I’m from the other side of the world Scott. I feel you were describing many of the churches in my region, including my own church. Sadly, some major world churches look to the mega churches models in the West for direction instead of celebrating the rich cultural diversity of their own. I’m grateful for your insights and timely rebuke. Thank you. 谢谢. Terima kasih.
Terima kasih kerana membaca, Desmond. I love your statement about churches “celebrating the rich cultural diversity of their own.” Oh, how I wish Christians could grasp the beauty of their own indigenous culture and glorify God in that simplicity. Unfortunately, the Western mega-church models are often (although not always) just re-branded American consumerism and have little to do with making committed disciples of Jesus. banyak rahmat.
Seems from a biblical perspective the concern should be about the modern professional clergy system as being without biblical foundation. Until the whole “pastor” system comes crashing down, we are just rearranging boxes and saying the new pile will hold up the church better.
I think this is one of the most insightful statements yet. I’m concerned about the the pastors who don’t truly believe and teach the priesthood of all believers. Nothing will change until we all realize that WE are all the church. Paid or unpaid we are all staff, just as capable and filled with God’s Spirit.
Fred, That’s an excellent addition to the conversation. Theology that looks good in print isn’t always implemented and lived out when the egos of men get in the way. Unfortunately, that kind of spirit often leads to abuse. Thanks again for commenting. Blessings!
Philip, Yes, that’s good. “The modern professional clergy system” fits well into the corporate/consumer mentality of our generation. But it’s a substitute for an authentic shepherding ministry of biblical elders with shepherding/teaching gifts (Ephesians 4:11-16). Thanks for joining in the conversation. Blessings.
i’m not part of the “clergy system” but I am wondering what you mean by the “modern professional clergy system” and the “pastor” system. i’m a believer and a member of a local church, but don’t get the lingo here and what you are concerned about.
Thanks. I am concerned too. This message is not to be preached to pastors only but also to church lay leaders of the top rung
Luke, much truth there, my friend. Blessings!
Lots of truth here, Pastor.
I would also add: I’m concerned about the pastor [or entire church body] that is stuck on denomination titles. I didn’t know until WAY too late in my teen years that God’s people existed in other denominations besides the one I was raised in. It’s an “Us vs. Them” mentality. “Us vs. the World.” “Us. vs. those-so-called-Christians.” Sometimes I think we forget who the enemy really is.
Elizabeth, Good to hear from you. I hope you and baby are doing well. We miss seeing your family. But on to the point. Yeah, that’s been a real controversy for a lot of people. I certainly understand the need for descriptions that help clarify biblical perspectives, but it’s sickening to see lines drawn over secondary and tertiary issues which contradicts the spirit of the gospel. Great insight. Thanks for adding to the conversation. Blessings!!
Indeed, this was something that has been on my heart for years, and the cause for me leaving my former church…. a church should be based on the heart of God, the matters He is concerned about, and not about fanciful programs, and the red tapes, and the yada yada yada…. Really…. take everything apart and see the core – the heart of Christ…. that should be what the church be made up of… is it not? Thanks for this excellent sharing….
Timothy, Thanks for commenting. Following Christ and seeking to know and glorify Him is the central emphasis in all of life. Certainly, the church should be pursuing that end above all things. Blessings.
I’m concerned with pastors who just swallow the ‘conventional’ teachings of Augustine.
Interesting. I’m not sure I follow, so I can’t really respond justly. Thanks for stopping by. Peace and blessings.
I had to go through the list again to compare myself to it. It’s so easy for me to just go through it and point a finger in every direction other than to myself.
Thank you, Scott.
Mike, that’s so true. This post was born out of reflecting on my own ministry over the years. It’s good for us (1 Timothy 1:16). Blessings.
Your article is refreshing and encouraging. My husband is a pastor whom you would NOT be concerned about..God has crushed him and broken him and taught and healed him and he has come out as a teacher of the word, pastor to his flock, constantly and intimately aware that those who teach/lead the flock of God stand a stricter judgement. His main desire is to grow God’s people to become like Jesus. He has turned his back on the new church trends, the pragmatism, the greed, the tickling of itching ears. One thing we are seeing, though, is that very, very few people want that kind of pastor. Thank you for the encouragement, it was a blessing and it was needed.
Kitty, Thank you so much for posting. The crushing and breaking of God’s sanctifying process is so painful, yet as Hebrews reminds us, it yields that peaceable fruit of righteousness. It’s when we yield to God that we begin to yield his fruit. And, yes, you are so right. Many do not want such a pastor. “Rock Stars” and such make the religious product they are seeking very appealing for consumer-minded Christians. May God bless you and your husband in your ministry.
God bless him and use him more….🙌
I’m concerned about pastors that are overly teaching about money,houses,cars,acquiring land and saying if you have these things then you are in God’s favor,and if you don’t have these things then it must be due to sin in your life. It’s my thought that this type of teaching can people going after the wrong thing. It takes the focus off Christ and places it on things of no value.
Roderick, You’re right. The prosperity gospel has been an illness in the church for decades and beyond. Blessings.
I’m with you on 9 of the 10 points. Perhaps number 8 needs better explanation; I’m of the opinion that a literal hermenutic is proper, taking into consideration figures of speech and the type of the writing (poetry, history, etc). I’m with you on the idea of cherry picking verses…and the rest of the article hits the nail on the head.
Jeff, I can understand your concern about the literal hermeneutic. But what you describe is basically a literary hermeneutic. The word literal is actually derived from the Latin root litteralis, which is what literal would have meant at one time. However, many have ignored the literary nature in order to produce a manual of sorts that becomes prescriptive for every occasion. Thus, the cherry-picking. Thanks for commenting. Blessings.
I was with Scott until #8 also. In the next category he talks about not cherry-picking the ideas or concepts or practices which appeal to you but that’s exactly what he and many others do with Scripture, ignoring bodily resurrection, for example, or interpreting it in some spiritualized fashion.
Gordon, Thanks for commenting. However, I think you’ve misunderstood what it means to understand the Bible literarily if you think it means denying the tenants of the faith. You make a fallacious logic jump when you go from accusing me of cherry-picking scripture without any example of my supposed mistake and then accusing me of denying the bodily resurrection for instance. Perhaps you would accept a gracious word of caution that you think through what you are saying a little bit more before commenting on a public blog. Peace and blessings.
If you leave a church because its “cliques, politics, agendas” then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Welcome to humanity! Every Church is like that to some extent, if you don’t believe it read the letters of Paul again. You go to Church to find Jesus, not an emotional support system, or best buddies for life. Human beings come and go, run hot and cold, and they change. This is why Churches fail, because you invite people to be there for the wrong reasons. Fellowship and friendships are by products of a good Church, but many people mistake them for God.
Interesting thoughts, Cheryl. Being part of the solution is definitely what we want to strive for. Thanks for that. Blessings.
Right on! It sound like the Ten Principles of the NuJack Preacher! To hit cyberspace and stores this late Spring 2014.
Interesting article and quite bold. I like it. You have hit on something that I believe is a part of a whole. If I may I will back the camera out a bit and capture what I believe is a broader picture and what many have already described. We can back up to” where it all began” and find the genesis the “system” was put into place by the adored but deceptive Constantine. The church was “legitimized” and neutered at the same time. The system must go. What satan can’t defeat through persecution, he will corrupt through success allowing it to defeat itself. Sad to say, some of the church fathers as we call them were already falling into this trap. I definitely am not promoting seeking persecution but neither the approval of man. Most of the time man has despised what God has anointed and approved. Thanks for bringing it up and allowing for discussion.
Mike, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. No doubt, the Edict of Milan was a game changer for the church. Even they weren’t entirely sure how to react to it. Furthermore, I think you’re on to something when we consider how the church leadership developed after that. Blessings.
I’m concerned about the masculine pronouns for pastors. Are you implying that there are no women pastors or that women pastors aren’t your concern?
Well, Cinda, the issue of a pastor’s qualifications was beyond the scope of this post. However, for the sake of clarity and full disclosure to readers (some of which I understand to be egalitarian in their theology), I understand the Scriptures to teach a complementarian view. Having studied out the issue and discussed the same with others on both side of it, that’s where I land when I’m being honest with myself. I have no agenda in holding that position except a desire to be intellectually honest with the sense of the Scriptures as I understand them. Furthermore, I have no quarrel with those who disagree with me having attempted to come to their position honestly as well. We’ll have to agree that we disagree on that issue and trust the Lord will sort it out in His time. Regardless, I wish you many blessings in the Lord.
Thanks for the insight.
This has been an issue that I’ve been struggling with since my teens. In Singapore, mega churches has become a trend. Though I’m not a Christian, I do believe the teachings of spreading love n humanity with a religious group, instead of using it as a form of social network. Our dear Pastor Kong Hee from City Harvest Church has made it into international news with funds embezzlement of over 40million dollars. I hope this could be a good wake up call to this rebranding of the American consumerism, or the prosperity gospel, as we know it to be over here…
Trey, thanks for weighing in. It’s sad when Christians in leadership abuse their office in the church. May the Lord of all grace bless you with a full knowledge of himself for his glory and your benefit. Peace and Grace!
Great article! As a young pastor (not yet 40, but almost) desiring to make a difference, I have found myself often in tension with the pull of current trends in ministry (eg. the mega church, rock star, church growth guru model, and all the books and materials that influence such practice) and following the biblical model of pastoral ministry and the call to make disciples. I have nothing but good to say about this article as it helps to reset the compass to “true north”!
Thanks, Steve. resetting to “true north” as you say is what we need, but may be harder than we realize as there has been 2000 years of history to sort through. Blessings!
11. I’m concerned about the pastor who sees the church where only its pastor can be a male.
Thanks for stopping by Annah. I’ve already addressed this issue in an earlier comment. Grace and peace!
But, Paul said it’s a male role. If you and I were sitting in a room filled with other believers, waiting for one of Paul’s close friends to start reading the letter he’d just received from the apostle, how would we interpret his words?
What has changed? The commands remain the same. Time is not a valid means for changing a text’s meaning.
I’m concerned about the pastors who will only help people in need as long as they are paying members of their church. On the other hand, I as a struggling person in a small town am completely blown away by a pastor who took two weeks off from his usual routine, rolled up his sleeves and helped me with a very important situation when no one else was willing to help. And I’m not a member of his church! The church I go to, was unwilling (not unable!) to help!
All good things. Though I was fairly unsatisfied with one or more of the comments that dis Constantine. I’m an Orthodox priest, and I believe that even Constantine cannot prevail against the Kingdom of Heaven and squelch it. There is plenty of grace and blessing in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic and Orthodox Church, as far as I can see. Been doing just fine for over 2000 years without any American – consumerism. If you desire a counterpoint to Constantine, take a look at the monastic movement prior to the edict of Milan. Grace peace and blessings come from the 1 Church and not so many ‘churches’. If it’s been there all along, sorta hard to refute as if it were some kind of diabolical ploy to ruin the Church. I’m pretty confused by that notion. Perhaps some need to brush up on their history a little better before you dismiss Constantine as if he is the cause of all that is without grace.
I’m concerned about Pastors who always asked for tithes/and offerings and not equipping the saints on how to create wealth;for their own family and personal well being;so giving to that local church can be less burdensome on their members!It’s not just JESUS,JESUS;JESUS..BUT IT’S THE KINGDOM THAT JESUS IMPLEMENTED!!!
Great observations. May these never be true of me!
I understood and agree wholeheartedly with 9 of 10. Number 8 also confused me. I’m sure if I understood your point I would probably agree with it as well. Is it possible for you to give specific examples of what you mean by “in the context of its literary genre”? Can you explain your view of scripture as literature, to be taken literarily as opposed to literally?
For example, can God take a verse out of context and apply it to someone’s personal life? What if said person made no universal application for others, realizing that to do so would be to create false hope. For example, a friend once used the verse in Acts 16:31
“So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” My friend took it to mean that God would save the entire household of any Christian who took Him at His word.
I disagreed with him completely. I warned him that he was taking a private promise and trying to make a doctrine out of it. But could God use that verse to assure an individual that He intended on saving an entire family?
Michael, Thanks for raising the question. I would agree whole-heartedly with your example. Authorial intent is the most important hermeneutic, I think. Another example might be taking a Proverb, which is wisdom poetry, say Proverbs 22:6, and taking it as a promise, rather than seeing it as an observation of a wise principle in action presented as a pithy maxim meant for the reader to chew on. Of course that’s just one of many examples. The primary point I was getting at is that –like in your example–all of the Bible is written for us, but not all of it is written to us. We must discern the theological truths in the context of their literary genres (poetry, narrative, apocalyptic) as they were meant to be understood by their original audience. Hope that helps. Peace and grace!
Usually the things we dislike are things that we wrestle within our own lives. Good list! Especially #8! Seems to me that avoiding a literal view of scripture would allow for the Truth that God and the Church and church leadership transcends gender.
Thanks for posting this #come to Jesus article. I found myself nodding quite a bit. But then struggled a bit with certain aspects of #8 & leave this blog feeling like I wish you would have written a whole separate piece just to make #8 a bit more comprehensive. God bless you and thanks for representing Him so well.
The thing that concerns me is when pastors “fail” to recognize that the church of Christ cannot nor should ever be contained within the four walls of a building. Every man, woman and child of God, through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus represents His church wherever we go. Every believer in Christ has been called into full time ministry wherever we have been strategically placed for the specific purpose in the world today. Christ Jesus did not die to atone for our sins and bestow upon us His righteousness just to make us “church goers” He has called us to “be the church” as we go.
I couldn’t agree more!
Thanks for that, Greg. I couldn’t have said it better: “Every believer in Christ has been called into full time ministry wherever we have been strategically placed for the specific purpose in the world today. Christ Jesus did not die to atone for our sins and bestow upon us His righteousness just to make us “church goers” He has called us to “be the church” as we go.” Blessings!
I don’t think there is a pastor, standing in a pulpit enclosed by four walls, that truly understands the Biblical message, and for many reasons; none of which you’ve touched. My litmus test for any message, teaching, or program is, ‘did Jesus have to die for any of this to be true?’ No. Many are prone to lift up self in their works; even in that, which is said to glorify God. The Gospel is universal, and if the message fails in a poverty-stricken land, where hope is merely in the next meal, then it has no place among the greedy and wasteful. If pastors think they’ve arrived because they’re Theology School graduates, then, woe to them. Many lack the true faith in what they’re doing, to even question the ‘status quo’, yet continue to teach an accursed gospel to the flock. Do any of you wonder why the world is in the shape that it’s in, but you have millions claiming the Christian faith?
I join you in wondering!
Unfortunately, Linda, if I’m understanding you correctly, I couldn’t disagree more. When you asked: “‘did Jesus have to die for any of this to be true?’” and answered, “No,” we are no longer discussing Christianity. Christianity is predisposed to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Without this, you don’t have Christianity at all. Thanks for commenting, though.
I am tired of people beating up on pastors from a distance with sweeping statements with no data to support the statements.
I couldn’t agree more!
On point #5. The church has no mandate to grow. What about the Great Commission. It was the last thing Jesus said to the 11 men he entrusted his church to in private. I read that as the purpose of the church. If a church isn’t growing on new converts/disciples to Christ, then it’s failing its mission.
Thanks for raising that question, Karl. To clarify, I agreed with you that we have been given the Great Commission. I said that in point under consideration. I said, “Sure there is one for propagating the gospel and making disciples. But the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.” What I’m referring to is the unhealthy emphasis on church growth, instead of making disciples to the glory of God. While it may seem like I’m splitting hairs, there is a difference in emphasis which creates a different outcome in the church life. Making a distinction between “tactic” and “philosophy” would be helpful.Blessings.
It is true the Kingdom is about growth however we are told to PLANT AND WATER and let GOD deal with the INCREASE. Pastors who focus more on increasing the number of people in the pews than on the Spiritual health of their flock are badly missing the point. IF Gideon had the same idea as these “church growth” pastors there would have been thousands of noisy out of control loud mouths on the hills that night and Im sure the battle would have gone alot differently. If JESUS had the same idea as these “church growth” pastors he would never have confronted the Pharisees or the people who came to hear Him only for the bread and not for the Words He spoke. Focusing on the SIZE of a church is CARNAL and men use SOULISH TECHNIQUES to accomplish their own goals of growing the numbers. We need SPIRITUAL leaders who hav
e already OVERCOME in their own personal walk with God instead of men who have degrees in Bible Study and good speaking skills.
On point #5. The church has no mandate to grow. What about the Great Commission. It was the last thing Jesus said to the 11 men he entrusted his church to in private. I read that as the purpose of the church. If a church isn’t growing on new converts/disciples to Christ, then it’s failing its mission.
Thanks for raising that question, Karl. To clarify, I agreed with you that we have been given the Great Commission. I said that in point under consideration. I said, “Sure there is one for propagating the gospel and making disciples. But the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.” What I’m referring to is the unhealthy emphasis on church growth, instead of making disciples to the glory of God. While it may seem like I’m splitting hairs, there is a difference in emphasis which creates a different outcome in the church life. Making a distinction between “tactic” and “philosophy” would be helpful.Blessings.
It is true the Kingdom is about growth however we are told to PLANT AND WATER and let GOD deal with the INCREASE. Pastors who focus more on increasing the number of people in the pews than on the Spiritual health of their flock are badly missing the point. IF Gideon had the same idea as these “church growth” pastors there would have been thousands of noisy out of control loud mouths on the hills that night and Im sure the battle would have gone alot differently. If JESUS had the same idea as these “church growth” pastors he would never have confronted the Pharisees or the people who came to hear Him only for the bread and not for the Words He spoke. Focusing on the SIZE of a church is CARNAL and men use SOULISH TECHNIQUES to accomplish their own goals of growing the numbers. We need SPIRITUAL leaders who hav
e already OVERCOME in their own personal walk with God instead of men who have degrees in Bible Study and good speaking skills.
Did you really need to make that comment about John Maxwell to get your point across?
Did you really need to make that comment about John Maxwell to get your point across?
David, I don’t have anything personal against John Maxwell or Nelson Searcy. I’m quite positive they are both men of integrity. And Maxwell is a gifted communicator that has helped leaders in the church and other organizations. My concern is, as stated in my point, with the pastor who obsesses over church-growth strategies and leadership techniques (trying to develop himself into a CEO) instead of being the contemplative shepherd he was called to be. Thanks for letting me clarify that. Blessings.
Thank you for this article. It is very well written and pulls no punches yet it is obviously written in the Spirit of uplifting and instructing. We need MUCH MUCH more of this kind of exhortation in today’s dysfunctional church. Tithing, Prosperity, and Topical Sermons might be among my own top “concerns.”
As much as Nelson writes in his books about people staying, you have to wonder how come his staff never does. The NYC church has a constant rotating staff, no one is ever there for more than a few years, and none of the former staff attend the church. If what he is writing about really worked then why does his staff run.
I am concerned for the body of Christ where the pastor sees leading a church only as a paycheck, a pastor who is single and preys on the women in his church – telling them all the same things. I am concerned for the pastor who has lost sight of the fact that a woman is a soul and at the end of the day his responsibility is to save souls and not destroy them. I am concerned for the church where the pastor thinks he is untouchable, one who has justified fornication and who has simply stopped hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Bonny, good call! Scandals abound in the church and the results are devastating. Exploiting people and resources for personal gain is a grave sin that carries grave consequences for everyone involved (perpetrator and victim, unfortunately). Thanks for raising the point. Grace and peace!
I am concerned for the body of Christ where the pastor sees leading a church only as a paycheck, a pastor who is single and preys on the women in his church – telling them all the same things. I am concerned for the pastor who has lost sight of the fact that a woman is a soul and at the end of the day his responsibility is to save souls and not destroy them. I am concerned for the church where the pastor thinks he is untouchable, one who has justified fornication and who has simply stopped hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Bonny, good call! Scandals abound in the church and the results are devastating. Exploiting people and resources for personal gain is a grave sin that carries grave consequences for everyone involved (perpetrator and victim, unfortunately). Thanks for raising the point. Grace and peace!
Thanks for that, Greg. I couldn’t have said it better: “Every believer in Christ has been called into full time ministry wherever we have been strategically placed for the specific purpose in the world today. Christ Jesus did not die to atone for our sins and bestow upon us His righteousness just to make us “church goers” He has called us to “be the church” as we go.” Blessings!
Unfortunately, Linda, if I’m understanding you correctly, I couldn’t disagree more. When you asked: “‘did Jesus have to die for any of this to be true?’” and answered, “No,” we are no longer discussing Christianity. Christianity is predisposed to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Without this, you don’t have Christianity at all. Thanks for commenting, though.
I am tired of people beating up on pastors from a distance with sweeping statements with no data to support the statements.
David, I don’t have anything personal against John Maxwell or Nelson Searcy. I’m quite positive they are both men of integrity. And Maxwell is a gifted communicator that has helped leaders in the church and other organizations. My concern is, as stated in my point, with the pastor who obsesses over church-growth strategies and leadership techniques (trying to develop himself into a CEO) instead of being the contemplative shepherd he was called to be. Thanks for letting me clarify that. Blessings.
I am tired of people beating up on pastors from a distance with sweeping statements with no data to support the statements.
Thank you for this article. It is very well written and pulls no punches yet it is obviously written in the Spirit of uplifting and instructing. We need MUCH MUCH more of this kind of exhortation in today’s dysfunctional church. Tithing, Prosperity, and Topical Sermons might be among my own top “concerns.”
It is true the Kingdom is about growth however we are told to PLANT AND WATER and let GOD deal with the INCREASE. Pastors who focus more on increasing the number of people in the pews than on the Spiritual health of their flock are badly missing the point. IF Gideon had the same idea as these “church growth” pastors there would have been thousands of noisy out of control loud mouths on the hills that night and Im sure the battle would have gone alot differently. If JESUS had the same idea as these “church growth” pastors he would never have confronted the Pharisees or the people who came to hear Him only for the bread and not for the Words He spoke. Focusing on the SIZE of a church is CARNAL and men use SOULISH TECHNIQUES to accomplish their own goals of growing the numbers. We need SPIRITUAL leaders who hav
e already OVERCOME in their own personal walk with God instead of men who have degrees in Bible Study and good speaking skills.
Matthew 16: 18-19 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” This is my foundation for my Church and it has been going strong for almost 2000 years. All are welcome back to your roots and let not the Church of “what’s happening now” lead you astray. The Good Lord know just how many thousands of well intentioned “Churches” exist when Jesus met Church (singular) not Churches (plural) Happy Easter!
Matthew 16: 18-19 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” This is my foundation for my Church and it has been going strong for almost 2000 years. All are welcome back to your roots and let not the Church of “what’s happening now” lead you astray. The Good Lord know just how many thousands of well intentioned “Churches” exist when Jesus met Church (singular) not Churches (plural) Happy Easter!
And so, do you subscribe to the doctrine that those of us who believe salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone are anathema?
I find this teaching, that Peter was the first pope and over the other disciples, nowhere in the bible. Peter was a little bitty pebble. Christ was the rock. Christ built His church on Himself, not on the apostle Peter, and later claimed by the catholic church as the first pope. The Roman catholic church wasn’t made when Jesus spoke those words, rather God’s church was. Guess what? They can be different. The real church listens to the Lord, they may worship in the Catholic church, which I do not, but being catholic doesn’t make you part of God’s church.
Matthew 16: 18-19 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” This is my foundation for my Church and it has been going strong for almost 2000 years. All are welcome back to your roots and let not the Church of “what’s happening now” lead you astray. The Good Lord know just how many thousands of well intentioned “Churches” exist when Jesus met Church (singular) not Churches (plural) Happy Easter!
And so, do you subscribe to the doctrine that those of us who believe salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone are anathema?
I find this teaching, that Peter was the first pope and over the other disciples, nowhere in the bible. Peter was a little bitty pebble. Christ was the rock. Christ built His church on Himself, not on the apostle Peter, and later claimed by the catholic church as the first pope. The Roman catholic church wasn’t made when Jesus spoke those words, rather God’s church was. Guess what? They can be different. The real church listens to the Lord, they may worship in the Catholic church, which I do not, but being catholic doesn’t make you part of God’s church.
This all lies at the feet of many seminaries that teach management and marketing skill cleverly hidden in other courses. I remember when I was at Denver in the early 90s and they were on the forefront of the church growth movement, hearing counciling students talk about how they were going to get churches to subsidize people so they could get their full fee.
I had over 15 years in the corporate world and when I said to the acting president (he is no longer in any form of ministry) the seminary’s job should be to prepare men to be shepherds of the flock, he responded that the shepherd’s job was to get the sheep ready for shearing and slaughter. They were training men and women to be managers and marketers to better fill the pews and coffers (theirs).
Since those days that seminary, which is like so many, became a proponent of the TNIV and now the “new” NIV and encourages movements like the “emerging” church. Many of the comments here reflect that approach which says one can interpret Scripture any way they feel like they want it to say.
Sola Scripura and sola fide are secondary to slick programs. And one wonders why the church is in decline?
Bill, what a painful truth: “Sola Scripura and sola fide are secondary to slick programs.” Thanks for sharing. Blessings!
This all lies at the feet of many seminaries that teach management and marketing skill cleverly hidden in other courses. I remember when I was at Denver in the early 90s and they were on the forefront of the church growth movement, hearing counciling students talk about how they were going to get churches to subsidize people so they could get their full fee.
I had over 15 years in the corporate world and when I said to the acting president (he is no longer in any form of ministry) the seminary’s job should be to prepare men to be shepherds of the flock, he responded that the shepherd’s job was to get the sheep ready for shearing and slaughter. They were training men and women to be managers and marketers to better fill the pews and coffers (theirs).
Since those days that seminary, which is like so many, became a proponent of the TNIV and now the “new” NIV and encourages movements like the “emerging” church. Many of the comments here reflect that approach which says one can interpret Scripture any way they feel like they want it to say.
Sola Scripura and sola fide are secondary to slick programs. And one wonders why the church is in decline?
Bill, what a painful truth: “Sola Scripura and sola fide are secondary to slick programs.” Thanks for sharing. Blessings!
Among the concerns mentioned above, I think I am concerned about paid clergy in general. I am aware of some independent congregations where pastors worked at some job (non-church related) and did their pastoral duties without remuneration. Certain denominations do not have a paid clergy, yet others do. Outside of book royalties, why should a pastor be paid to bring others to Christ? Or, are paid clergy being paid for an administrative role?
What is unscriptural about paid clergy. The apostle Paul defended his right to receive payment even though he often worked as a tentmaker. He even stated that those who teach God’s Word are “worthy of double honor” and quoted Jesus saying, “The labourer is worthy of his wages.” Paid clergy are not “paid to bring others to Christ”. To say this is a gross misunderstanding and at worst, deceptive.
Is this a serious question?!?!
Among the concerns mentioned above, I think I am concerned about paid clergy in general. I am aware of some independent congregations where pastors worked at some job (non-church related) and did their pastoral duties without remuneration. Certain denominations do not have a paid clergy, yet others do. Outside of book royalties, why should a pastor be paid to bring others to Christ? Or, are paid clergy being paid for an administrative role?
What is unscriptural about paid clergy. The apostle Paul defended his right to receive payment even though he often worked as a tentmaker. He even stated that those who teach God’s Word are “worthy of double honor” and quoted Jesus saying, “The labourer is worthy of his wages.” Paid clergy are not “paid to bring others to Christ”. To say this is a gross misunderstanding and at worst, deceptive.
“Don’t muzzle the ox that treads the grain”. If the pastor is working full-time, or at least much of his time, how is he to survive? You imagine that somehow pastors and missionaries don’t eat? I’m a missionary who sometimes wonder about the realism of my fellow Christians. Paul was tent-making in Corinth, for the reason that the church was young, maybe a bit chaotic, and didn’t give him what he needed to live on. He made the best of such a situation, as many pastors and missionaries do. In fact, this way of life is the only one possible in countries that would never allow a Christian missionary to enter. But, being reasonably well-off and scoff at the idea of making it possible for a brother or sister called by God to be in a full-time ministry, is not wise. Let’s not reject honest full-time ministries because our minds have been poisoned by money-loving image-adoring preachers.
You shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the corn, God does not care so much for oxen
Among the concerns mentioned above, I think I am concerned about paid clergy in general. I am aware of some independent congregations where pastors worked at some job (non-church related) and did their pastoral duties without remuneration. Certain denominations do not have a paid clergy, yet others do. Outside of book royalties, why should a pastor be paid to bring others to Christ? Or, are paid clergy being paid for an administrative role?
What is unscriptural about paid clergy. The apostle Paul defended his right to receive payment even though he often worked as a tentmaker. He even stated that those who teach God’s Word are “worthy of double honor” and quoted Jesus saying, “The labourer is worthy of his wages.” Paid clergy are not “paid to bring others to Christ”. To say this is a gross misunderstanding and at worst, deceptive.
“Don’t muzzle the ox that treads the grain”. If the pastor is working full-time, or at least much of his time, how is he to survive? You imagine that somehow pastors and missionaries don’t eat? I’m a missionary who sometimes wonder about the realism of my fellow Christians. Paul was tent-making in Corinth, for the reason that the church was young, maybe a bit chaotic, and didn’t give him what he needed to live on. He made the best of such a situation, as many pastors and missionaries do. In fact, this way of life is the only one possible in countries that would never allow a Christian missionary to enter. But, being reasonably well-off and scoff at the idea of making it possible for a brother or sister called by God to be in a full-time ministry, is not wise. Let’s not reject honest full-time ministries because our minds have been poisoned by money-loving image-adoring preachers.
You shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the corn, God does not care so much for oxen
Is this a serious question?!?!
I’m a Catholic. In the Catholic Church, giving Communion to obstinate, public grave sinners is itself a mortal sin. (Cf. Canon 915)
This is not an exclusively “Catholic issue.” Socially, it is very important to ALL Christians, because we have many, many pro-abortion, pro-gay-marriage, pro-tyranny politicians who claim to be Catholic in order to get votes. Each time one of these people is given Communion, the priest involved, and his bishop, become guilty of another mortal sin.
All but about 15 Catholic bishops in America are dodging their duty–a strict, absolute duty–to refuse to give Communion to these “Catholics.”
Each and every one of the Cardinals in America refuses to obey Canon 915, and many have woven an elaborate tissue of plausible-sounding lies about this duty. Pope John Paul II, in a document called “Reconciliation and Penance,” referred to those who contribute to “social sin” by refusing to do their part in opposing it, out of secret complicity or fear, and offering “specious reasons of a higher order.” Google “wuerl communion canon 915” or “dolan communion canon 915” or “o’malley communion canon 915” to see some of these “specious reasons.”
Two bishops who are obeying Canon 915 are Archbishop Aquila and Bishop Paprocki.
It’s a sobering thought to realize that every Catholic bishop in America, other than those 15 or so, is walking around habitually in the state of mortal sin. To become an instant expert, read this article by Cardinal Raymond Burke, the “chief justice” of the entire Catholic Church:
http://tinyurl.com/canon915
Fr. Fitzpatrick, Your point just goes to show how, no matter the faith practice or denomination, mankind’s tendency will always be to justify their error with fallacious reasoning. Grace and Peace!
I’m a Catholic. In the Catholic Church, giving Communion to obstinate, public grave sinners is itself a mortal sin. (Cf. Canon 915)
This is not an exclusively “Catholic issue.” Socially, it is very important to ALL Christians, because we have many, many pro-abortion, pro-gay-marriage, pro-tyranny politicians who claim to be Catholic in order to get votes. Each time one of these people is given Communion, the priest involved, and his bishop, become guilty of another mortal sin.
All but about 15 Catholic bishops in America are dodging their duty–a strict, absolute duty–to refuse to give Communion to these “Catholics.”
Each and every one of the Cardinals in America refuses to obey Canon 915, and many have woven an elaborate tissue of plausible-sounding lies about this duty. Pope John Paul II, in a document called “Reconciliation and Penance,” referred to those who contribute to “social sin” by refusing to do their part in opposing it, out of secret complicity or fear, and offering “specious reasons of a higher order.” Google “wuerl communion canon 915” or “dolan communion canon 915” or “o’malley communion canon 915” to see some of these “specious reasons.”
Two bishops who are obeying Canon 915 are Archbishop Aquila and Bishop Paprocki.
It’s a sobering thought to realize that every Catholic bishop in America, other than those 15 or so, is walking around habitually in the state of mortal sin. To become an instant expert, read this article by Cardinal Raymond Burke, the “chief justice” of the entire Catholic Church:
http://tinyurl.com/canon915
Fr. Fitzpatrick, Your point just goes to show how, no matter the faith practice or denomination, mankind’s tendency will always be to justify their error with fallacious reasoning. Grace and Peace!
I love the idea of not reading the bible literally but do not almost all churches in spore do so?
I love the idea of not reading the bible literally but do not almost all churches in spore do so?
I have struggled with this issue in Singapore as well since retiring from the mission field and moving here with my wife; it was frankly quite shocking how many pastors don’t seem to fact check their sermons beforehand (honestly, if you use modern bible software packages like Logos a pastor only needs a few minutes per verse/section to cross reference a couple of commentaries to make sure you aren’t in left field so I don’t how they can be so incredibly far off sometimes). I suspect it is because the larger churches tend to be A.) neo charismatic/third wave/NAR/G12/whatever else, B.) prosperity doctrine, C.) the pastors don’t have or look down on scholarly experience/training in biblical exegesis, D.) insistence on KJV/NKJV as though it’s a salvation requirement, or even E.) all of the above; ergo, it behoves those pastors/church staff to cherry pick verses and sections of the bible wildly out of context to support the myriad of quirky theological claims that go along with those the associated standpoints. That being said, there are some pretty good pastors who do excellent exegesis and are very genuine Christian servants spread about the island in various denominations (I’ve met some pretty solid pastors in the Presbyterian, Baptist, and AoG churches) and at least a couple non-denominational churches.
Isaac,
Yes! I whole-heartedly agree, especially with your statement that “.there are some pretty good pastors who do excellent exegesis and are very genuine Christian servants spread about the island in various denominations.” I’m thankful for every pastor who is preaching the gospel of Jesus for the glory of God. Blessings!
Both Paul and Jesus seem to indicate that it is appropriate for a pastor to receive wages.
Both Paul and Jesus seem to indicate that it is appropriate for a pastor to receive wages.
Both Paul and Jesus seem to indicate that it is appropriate for a pastor to receive wages.
Wow! I’m convinced that American “ministry expert observers” have too much time on their hands. Sweeping generalizations, sounding authoritative, inflated with anecdotal evidence with judgmental “seat of the scornful” overtones make for the press that shows unbelievers that Christians are such an uptight bunch. God help us if that’s the job we take, to knit pick. There are so many vying for the saturated saints, it’s too bad that we can’t drop it and take the good news to the thirsty, parched and dying multitudes who have never heard!
I’m more concerned about the writer of this blog! Why not talk to the 10 Pastors, dude?
Apparently, I am. There seems to be quite a discussion going on about these concerns. Furthermore, nothing said here was intended to offend you; rather, it was said to challenge all of us. Peace and grace.
so well said!!!! a lot of people are wasting their time finding faults, criticizing ,very few are praying for their leaders, we are the Body of Christ, if you judge those leaders, are you better?
Wow! I’m convinced that American “ministry expert observers” have too much time on their hands. Sweeping generalizations, sounding authoritative, inflated with anecdotal evidence with judgmental “seat of the scornful” overtones make for the press that shows unbelievers that Christians are such an uptight bunch. God help us if that’s the job we take, to knit pick. There are so many vying for the saturated saints, it’s too bad that we can’t drop it and take the good news to the thirsty, parched and dying multitudes who have never heard!
I’m more concerned about the writer of this blog! Why not talk to the 10 Pastors, dude?
Apparently, I am. There seems to be quite a discussion going on about these concerns. Furthermore, nothing said here was intended to offend you; rather, it was said to challenge all of us. Peace and grace.
Loved it!!! Keep telling the truth, We can’t change if we don’t face what the problem is . . . Only egos reject such scenarios here, because everybody wants to be the one to have the answer, but can’t back up their statements or reasoning with bible . . . and people who are guilty often are the most offended. thanks for sharing, I’m reposting!!!!
so well said!!!! a lot of people are wasting their time finding faults, criticizing ,very few are praying for their leaders, we are the Body of Christ, if you judge those leaders, are you better?
“Harden not your hearts!” sounds like someone is being convicted.
Scott was addressing ten types of pastors, no one specifically.
I have struggled with this issue in Singapore as well since retiring from the mission field and moving here with my wife; it was frankly quite shocking how many pastors don’t seem to fact check their sermons beforehand (honestly, if you use modern bible software packages like Logos a pastor only needs a few minutes per verse/section to cross reference a couple of commentaries to make sure you aren’t in left field so I don’t how they can be so incredibly far off sometimes). I suspect it is because the larger churches tend to be A.) neo charismatic/third wave/NAR/G12/whatever else, B.) prosperity doctrine, C.) the pastors don’t have or look down on scholarly experience/training in biblical exegesis, D.) insistence on KJV/NKJV as though it’s a salvation requirement, or even E.) all of the above; ergo, it behoves those pastors/church staff to cherry pick verses and sections of the bible wildly out of context to support the myriad of quirky theological claims that go along with those the associated standpoints. That being said, there are some pretty good pastors who do excellent exegesis and are very genuine Christian servants spread about the island in various denominations (I’ve met some pretty solid pastors in the Presbyterian, Baptist, and AoG churches) and at least a couple non-denominational churches.
Isaac,
Yes! I whole-heartedly agree, especially with your statement that “.there are some pretty good pastors who do excellent exegesis and are very genuine Christian servants spread about the island in various denominations.” I’m thankful for every pastor who is preaching the gospel of Jesus for the glory of God. Blessings!
I’d love for you to check out my church. Whatsnewworship.com
I think my pastor Is doing a great job. He’s wonderful about pointing us right back to the bible, his mission is to turn us into what he lovingly terms “Jesus freaks”. In other words, loving disciples of God. I think Andy Combs is doing a wonderful job as pastor. So much love in our church! God is good!
I’d love for you to check out my church. Whatsnewworship.com
I think my pastor Is doing a great job. He’s wonderful about pointing us right back to the bible, his mission is to turn us into what he lovingly terms “Jesus freaks”. In other words, loving disciples of God. I think Andy Combs is doing a wonderful job as pastor. So much love in our church! God is good!
Thx Scott, for your probing commentary & questions. Raw milk & meat will suffice. Pray for the Bride to remain with her Husband.
Thx Scott, for your probing commentary & questions. Raw milk & meat will suffice. Pray for the Bride to remain with her Husband.
You’re welcome. Be blessed.
Thx Scott, for your probing commentary & questions. Raw milk & meat will suffice. Pray for the Bride to remain with her Husband.
You’re welcome. Be blessed.
i’m not part of the “clergy system” but I am wondering what you mean by the “modern professional clergy system” and the “pastor” system. i’m a believer and a member of a local church, but don’t get the lingo here and what you are concerned about.
I agree with the substance of the blog but was put off and distracted by the prevalence of male pronouns. Women are ordained ministers and priests in most denominations. As your blog points out in several sections, language and our treatment and use of it, truly matters.
Jeanne, way to miss the point. Go read the Bible again, and you’ll find that even though male pronouns are used, it more often than not refers to the whole of the religious community. Feminism has no place in the church. Period.
Jeanne, I am also a woman and did not in any way see a “prevalence of male pronouns” or have this impression that this post was directed only to men. I appreciate the honest observation and hope more people recognize these deficiencies in church leaders, whether they are male or female.
Casie, Thank you for your keen observation. Grace and peace.
I agree with the substance of the blog but was put off and distracted by the prevalence of male pronouns. Women are ordained ministers and priests in most denominations. As your blog points out in several sections, language and our treatment and use of it, truly matters.
Jeanne, way to miss the point. Go read the Bible again, and you’ll find that even though male pronouns are used, it more often than not refers to the whole of the religious community. Feminism has no place in the church. Period.
Jeanne, I am also a woman and did not in any way see a “prevalence of male pronouns” or have this impression that this post was directed only to men. I appreciate the honest observation and hope more people recognize these deficiencies in church leaders, whether they are male or female.
Casie, Thank you for your keen observation. Grace and peace.
RE: “I … was put off and distracted by the prevalence of male pronouns. Women are ordained ministers and priests in most denominations.”
That is a problem with those denominations, not the article.
1 Timothy 2:12–14 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.(ESV)
I don’t want to be just proof-texting, but I believe in context is means what it appears to be saying on the surface. Women aren’t to be in positions of authority over men in the church. the immediate context is proper behavior within the church. The Adam and Eve reference makes it a universal principle, not a local cultural one.
Then there are the qualifications – “husband of one wife” and “rules his household well.” If you want to attempt to take the masculine pronoun out of that second one (and I’m sure you do), it’s not hard to figure out who is supposed to be the head of a biblical household.
There are no women pastors, although there are certainly some false teachers who claim the title.
Scott was addressing ten types of pastors, no one specifically.
Jeanne, way to miss the point. Go read the Bible again, and you’ll find that even though male pronouns are used, it more often than not refers to the whole of the religious community. Feminism has no place in the church. Period.
Scott,
Thanks for the article. Where do you believe pastors who have administrative and leadership giftings fit? Would you say that only pastors who have the gifts of wisdom/discernments are fit to be pastors? Just looking for some clarification. Good read! Perhaps a piece on “what should we measure”, if not church attendance would be helpful (how many are we discipling, where the kingdom is breaking in, etc). Perhaps you already have… Blessings!
Scott,
Thanks for the article. Where do you believe pastors who have administrative and leadership giftings fit? Would you say that only pastors who have the gifts of wisdom/discernments are fit to be pastors? Just looking for some clarification. Good read! Perhaps a piece on “what should we measure”, if not church attendance would be helpful (how many are we discipling, where the kingdom is breaking in, etc). Perhaps you already have… Blessings!
Tim, very astute regarding the standard of measure. That is a great question, one that needs much more consideration. I think you’re on target regarding standards of measuring success in ministry (i.e. discipleship, kingdom influence, etc.). But as we all know those can be nebulous and subjective, making it a difficult standard to use. Thus our tendency is to look at attendance, public decisions, finances, etc. That’s something we need to push back against in my opinion. Additionally, I do see a place for leaders with administrative and leadership giftings in the eldership of the church. Actually, I think those giftings are absolutely essential. Thanks for the intelligent and edifying engagement on the issues. Grace and Peace!
Scott,
Thanks for the article. Where do you believe pastors who have administrative and leadership giftings fit? Would you say that only pastors who have the gifts of wisdom/discernments are fit to be pastors? Just looking for some clarification. Good read! Perhaps a piece on “what should we measure”, if not church attendance would be helpful (how many are we discipling, where the kingdom is breaking in, etc). Perhaps you already have… Blessings!
Tim, very astute regarding the standard of measure. That is a great question, one that needs much more consideration. I think you’re on target regarding standards of measuring success in ministry (i.e. discipleship, kingdom influence, etc.). But as we all know those can be nebulous and subjective, making it a difficult standard to use. Thus our tendency is to look at attendance, public decisions, finances, etc. That’s something we need to push back against in my opinion. Additionally, I do see a place for leaders with administrative and leadership giftings in the eldership of the church. Actually, I think those giftings are absolutely essential. Thanks for the intelligent and edifying engagement on the issues. Grace and Peace!
Scott, you have enlightened some and enraged others- this is exactly what a proper discourse should go. Grace and peace.
Terrance, Thank you for the encouraging words. I’m glad I could be one of the catalysts to help start this particular conversation. Be blessed!
Scott, you have enlightened some and enraged others- this is exactly what a proper discourse should go. Grace and peace.
Terrance, Thank you for the encouraging words. I’m glad I could be one of the catalysts to help start this particular conversation. Be blessed!
I believe that these writings should be posted in every Pastors and Ministers offices to be a reminder of how to truly minister The Word of God to His people.
Amen
I believe that these writings should be posted in every Pastors and Ministers offices to be a reminder of how to truly minister The Word of God to His people.
Amen
Thanks, Damon. I know I often need to be reminded of these concerns. Peace!
“Harden not your hearts!” sounds like someone is being convicted.
I want to (charitably) critique this column in two ways. First, overall, given the high level of clergy burn-out and fatigue, such a “platitude” almost self-righteous critique of success needs to be put into perspective. Some pastors have to make tough decisions to leave ministry because they not only are not fulfilling some “kingdom” mandate (however defined) but because they cannot support their families on a church where people are not coming to faith, and the corresponding membership and offering numbers are not increasing. Any pastor serious about ministry, in my view, cannot just be faithful, but must seek to be fruitful. We are called to make disciples. The Lord adds to the church, but I think the writer had it right in 1 Cor. 9:19-23, I have become all things to all people so that I might by all means save “some.” So, inside your critique seems to be a disdain for the desire for numerical growth, but Christianity is based on conversion, confirmation or something, not just maintenance of the status quo of the already-faithful. To more finely tune this critique, there are a variety of reasons that pastors don’t track into contexts where their ministries can flourish. For example, women probably have much more difficulty being called to prime pulpits, it’s no wonder that most of the large churches in this country and most of the books, if not all of them on church growth in America are by men. Moreover, even when minority churches (black, Latino, Asian) churches grow, and there are plenty of non-white megachurches, it’s almost always the case that churches with large numbers of whites and ethnic minorities are almost always pastored by whites. Finally, when you are someone like me, committed no only to a since of generous orthodoxy, but liberationist orthopraxy, social justice ministry often is done best by congregations with lots of people and resources, but many shoulder a burden of being in small parishes that struggle financially and numerically. So, I read Karl Barth and George Barna, and I pay attention to T.D. Jakes and James Cone. So, I think for a variety of reasons you’ve oversimplified the issues, by perhaps having a self-referencing post focused on folks like you who may only follow Driscoll, Warren, et. al… There’s a lot more at play than that, and many of answers to ministry challenges, pure and simple is a growing church — more people, more resources, and to want that to do effective ministry and make more of an impact is not something I think we need to readily and easily critique.
Pastor Marlon,
Thank you for weighing in. I agree there is merit to your point that larger churches have more resources. And as you likely noticed, I didn’t condemn large churches wholesale. I said I was “concerned” about the why (motivation) and how (praxis) pastors grow churches, how they minister to people, and how they steward resources. Concern is a far cry from condemnation. Additionally, you said you felt I had “a disdain for the desire for numerical growth, but Christianity is based on conversion, confirmation or something, not just maintenance of the status quo of the already-faithful.” Just so it’s clear, I agree with your statement that Christianity is based on conversion…. I do not, in fact, have a disdain for growth. But I recognize God gives the increase. And increase, biblically speaking, should usually result in church duplication, not personal empire building. That’s my concern. Again, thank you, sincerely, for your valuable contribution to the conversation. Peace and blessings!
I want to (charitably) critique this column in two ways. First, overall, given the high level of clergy burn-out and fatigue, such a “platitude” almost self-righteous critique of success needs to be put into perspective. Some pastors have to make tough decisions to leave ministry because they not only are not fulfilling some “kingdom” mandate (however defined) but because they cannot support their families on a church where people are not coming to faith, and the corresponding membership and offering numbers are not increasing. Any pastor serious about ministry, in my view, cannot just be faithful, but must seek to be fruitful. We are called to make disciples. The Lord adds to the church, but I think the writer had it right in 1 Cor. 9:19-23, I have become all things to all people so that I might by all means save “some.” So, inside your critique seems to be a disdain for the desire for numerical growth, but Christianity is based on conversion, confirmation or something, not just maintenance of the status quo of the already-faithful. To more finely tune this critique, there are a variety of reasons that pastors don’t track into contexts where their ministries can flourish. For example, women probably have much more difficulty being called to prime pulpits, it’s no wonder that most of the large churches in this country and most of the books, if not all of them on church growth in America are by men. Moreover, even when minority churches (black, Latino, Asian) churches grow, and there are plenty of non-white megachurches, it’s almost always the case that churches with large numbers of whites and ethnic minorities are almost always pastored by whites. Finally, when you are someone like me, committed no only to a since of generous orthodoxy, but liberationist orthopraxy, social justice ministry often is done best by congregations with lots of people and resources, but many shoulder a burden of being in small parishes that struggle financially and numerically. So, I read Karl Barth and George Barna, and I pay attention to T.D. Jakes and James Cone. So, I think for a variety of reasons you’ve oversimplified the issues, by perhaps having a self-referencing post focused on folks like you who may only follow Driscoll, Warren, et. al… There’s a lot more at play than that, and many of answers to ministry challenges, pure and simple is a growing church — more people, more resources, and to want that to do effective ministry and make more of an impact is not something I think we need to readily and easily critique.
Pastor Marlon,
Thank you for weighing in. I agree there is merit to your point that larger churches have more resources. And as you likely noticed, I didn’t condemn large churches wholesale. I said I was “concerned” about the why (motivation) and how (praxis) pastors grow churches, how they minister to people, and how they steward resources. Concern is a far cry from condemnation. Additionally, you said you felt I had “a disdain for the desire for numerical growth, but Christianity is based on conversion, confirmation or something, not just maintenance of the status quo of the already-faithful.” Just so it’s clear, I agree with your statement that Christianity is based on conversion…. I do not, in fact, have a disdain for growth. But I recognize God gives the increase. And increase, biblically speaking, should usually result in church duplication, not personal empire building. That’s my concern. Again, thank you, sincerely, for your valuable contribution to the conversation. Peace and blessings!
Loved it!!! Keep telling the truth, We can’t change if we don’t face what the problem is . . . Only egos reject such scenarios here, because everybody wants to be the one to have the answer, but can’t back up their statements or reasoning with bible . . . and people who are guilty often are the most offended. thanks for sharing, I’m reposting!!!!
I agree with a good portion of this article, but I think it looses it chance to really impact the “Pastors that Pastor Scott is concerned about” and rather get amens from people who agree with him. The wording (In my humble opinion) could have been put together with the PnP approach (Positive-negitive-Positive). I believe Pastor Ric Warren is a has a great way to approach Pastors with rebuke in love. Pastor Scott seems upset with different styles of ministry and at times comes off as a hater, but I don’t think that was his intent and nor do I believe he is such. He actually seems to really have a heart for true ministry, though this article comes off as kind of Pharisee(isk).. I’m hoping that he takes this in love and keep it in mind before printing his next article of concern for other clergy…. We are different, but we are ONE!!! Romans 12:5
I hate to point this out but if you read the gospels, Jesus called his fellow teachers “broods of vipers” or “white washed tombs full of dead mans bones.” Maybe that’s out of context, but it can’t all be hugs and kisses.
“Like” button for Dave’s comment.
I agree with a good portion of this article, but I think it looses it chance to really impact the “Pastors that Pastor Scott is concerned about” and rather get amens from people who agree with him. The wording (In my humble opinion) could have been put together with the PnP approach (Positive-negitive-Positive). I believe Pastor Ric Warren is a has a great way to approach Pastors with rebuke in love. Pastor Scott seems upset with different styles of ministry and at times comes off as a hater, but I don’t think that was his intent and nor do I believe he is such. He actually seems to really have a heart for true ministry, though this article comes off as kind of Pharisee(isk).. I’m hoping that he takes this in love and keep it in mind before printing his next article of concern for other clergy…. We are different, but we are ONE!!! Romans 12:5
I hate to point this out but if you read the gospels, Jesus called his fellow teachers “broods of vipers” or “white washed tombs full of dead mans bones.” Maybe that’s out of context, but it can’t all be hugs and kisses.
I am reminded of Jesus’ response to the scribes and Pharisees when they brought to Him the woman caught in adultery. John 8:7b, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
As I stated in my original comments. All ten concerns are valid and very well articulated. Now, what we must do as leaders is first, examine ourselves, second, PRAY, yes PRAY against the works of unrighteousness, PRAY that the blind eyes become open; PRAY, that the word of God will convict; PRAY that the enemy, every work of darkness will be exposed; stronghold’s cast down; and the captives be no longer deceived but set free, by the power of the name of Jesus, healed by the blood of Jesus; and drawn back to the things of God through the loving hands of men and women of God as instruments of reconciliation. We must not stop at identifying the problems; we must go a step farther…we must look to sovereign One, the God of grace and wisdom…God who freely gives us all wisdom when we ask…and pray for those who know not what they do (And if they do know what they do, then pray for them too because they walking in self-deceit.) Remember, Prayer is powerful, prayer is unifying; intercession is calling upon God, to do for others, the things that we are not able to do ourselves. John 14:13-14 (KJV)
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
“Like” button for Dave’s comment.
Scott – thanks for your insightful writings in your article, ’10 Pastors….’ So, so many pastors, unfortunately, fit into one or more of these categories. The real issues is with the parishioners who are sitting under these men who also adopt the attitudes/teachings/methodology /theology et….as the norm.
Scott – thanks for your insightful writings in your article, ’10 Pastors….’ So, so many pastors, unfortunately, fit into one or more of these categories. The real issues is with the parishioners who are sitting under these men who also adopt the attitudes/teachings/methodology /theology et….as the norm.
Andrew, Thanks for pointing out this important fact: “The real issues is with the parishioners who are sitting under these men who also adopt the attitudes/teachings/methodology /theology et….as the norm.” We don’t want to duplicate our sins and shortcomings. We want to eradicate them by God’s grace the best we are able and build up each generation with healthy teaching (sound doctrine). Blessings!
I’m concerned with the exclusive use of the male pronoun referring to pastors in this article.
Seriously? Reading that many he/she’s would have made us all sea sick.
Looking for a “like” button. Thank you, Erich. And of course women can be pastors. They are!
Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? I’m hoping that’s not the only thing you got from the article.
I’m concerned with the exclusive use of the male pronoun referring to pastors in this article.
That is because only men are to be pastors, not women.
Seriously? Reading that many he/she’s would have made us all sea sick.
Looking for a “like” button. Thank you, Erich. And of course women can be pastors. They are!
That is not biblical, men are the pastors.
Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? I’m hoping that’s not the only thing you got from the article.
RE: “I … was put off and distracted by the prevalence of male pronouns. Women are ordained ministers and priests in most denominations.”
That is a problem with those denominations, not the article.
1 Timothy 2:12–14 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.(ESV)
I don’t want to be just proof-texting, but I believe in context is means what it appears to be saying on the surface. Women aren’t to be in positions of authority over men in the church. the immediate context is proper behavior within the church. The Adam and Eve reference makes it a universal principle, not a local cultural one.
Then there are the qualifications – “husband of one wife” and “rules his household well.” If you want to attempt to take the masculine pronoun out of that second one (and I’m sure you do), it’s not hard to figure out who is supposed to be the head of a biblical household.
There are no women pastors, although there are certainly some false teachers who claim the title.
I so appreciate this article! I am concerned about the pastor who has no accountability. He is surrounded by yes people who see obvious problems but fear that they can’t sit at the “king’s” table and criticize the king. Great article!
Jeffery, You hit a nerve there. No accountability is one of the chief problems in the pulpit today. Certainly, accountability won’t keep a willful hypocrite from abusing the office, but it will keep honest pastors honest and help mitigate the temptations they face. Thanks for bringing up the issue. Blessings!
I so appreciate this article! I am concerned about the pastor who has no accountability. He is surrounded by yes people who see obvious problems but fear that they can’t sit at the “king’s” table and criticize the king. Great article!
Jeffery, You hit a nerve there. No accountability is one of the chief problems in the pulpit today. Certainly, accountability won’t keep a willful hypocrite from abusing the office, but it will keep honest pastors honest and help mitigate the temptations they face. Thanks for bringing up the issue. Blessings!
I am humbled by your insight. Sobering and affirming at the same time. Thanks for being real.
I am humbled by your insight. Sobering and affirming at the same time. Thanks for being real.
I’m concerned with pastors obsessed with telling other pastors what they’re doing wrong or painting with broad broad strokes. I’m concerned about the fact that before Jimmy Swaggart’s ministry shamed the Kingdom he had nasty things to say about everyone in tv ministry, music ministry, spoken ministry and written ministry.
I’m concerned with pastors obsessed with telling other pastors what they’re doing wrong or painting with broad broad strokes. I’m concerned about the fact that before Jimmy Swaggart’s ministry shamed the Kingdom he had nasty things to say about everyone in tv ministry, music ministry, spoken ministry and written ministry.
Wonderful article. Pastor Shep, your comment came across as very judgemental and sarcastic. I guess you would rebuke Jesus for calling out the Pharisees, right? Don’t worry Pastor Scott. As time goes on, the fruit of what you have laid out will be undeniably obvious. It’s happening now. These so called pastor’s true colors are showing and the Millennium Generation is not going for the manipulation. Churches will continue to go into foreclosure. Look at the latest report by the American Bible Society in the Washington Post. Their study shows that people in a majority no longer see the bible as the infallible word of god. The same way Christians cannot stop the gay agenda, these pastors will not be able to keep their churches in the dark.
Thank you for your kind words, James. I’m sure pastor Shep meant well. And, you’re right on one thing, the manipulation that’s been used in the pulpit’s for personal agenda is not being tolerated by this generation. That is one of the many reasons for the decline in our churches. That is something I think we all agree is concerning. My hope is to challenge pastors to think through these issues before we lose anymore of this generation. Peace and blessings.
Wonderful article. Pastor Shep, your comment came across as very judgemental and sarcastic. I guess you would rebuke Jesus for calling out the Pharisees, right? Don’t worry Pastor Scott. As time goes on, the fruit of what you have laid out will be undeniably obvious. It’s happening now. These so called pastor’s true colors are showing and the Millennium Generation is not going for the manipulation. Churches will continue to go into foreclosure. Look at the latest report by the American Bible Society in the Washington Post. Their study shows that people in a majority no longer see the bible as the infallible word of god. The same way Christians cannot stop the gay agenda, these pastors will not be able to keep their churches in the dark.
Wonderful article. Pastor Shep, your comment came across as very judgemental and sarcastic. I guess you would rebuke Jesus for calling out the Pharisees, right? Don’t worry Pastor Scott. As time goes on, the fruit of what you have laid out will be undeniably obvious. It’s happening now. These so called pastor’s true colors are showing and the Millennium Generation is not going for the manipulation. Churches will continue to go into foreclosure. Look at the latest report by the American Bible Society in the Washington Post. Their study shows that people in a majority no longer see the bible as the infallible word of god. The same way Christians cannot stop the gay agenda, these pastors will not be able to keep their churches in the dark.
Thank you for your kind words, James. I’m sure pastor Shep meant well. And, you’re right on one thing, the manipulation that’s been used in the pulpit’s for personal agenda is not being tolerated by this generation. That is one of the many reasons for the decline in our churches. That is something I think we all agree is concerning. My hope is to challenge pastors to think through these issues before we lose anymore of this generation. Peace and blessings.
What is your take on this?
What is your take on this?
What is your take on this?
Thank you for Number 8. That alone is probably the main source of why I have stopped calling myself a Christian. Nor do I any longer align myself with those right-wing, rigid so-called believers who condemn everyone they hate, or fear or hold in contempt as “lower” people. I still have my deep, and abiding faith in my wonderful God. I still trust Him with my whole life. He knows me and I continue to study Him. But those so-called Christians… they are what has driven me from my Church.
I am very sorry that you have had that experience with the church. I am going to pray for God to lead you in a place of fellowship where you can be blessed and also be a blessing to the body. I encourage you not to lose your identity as a Christian based on the actions of others. A Christian is one who has accepted Christ as his or her Lord and Savior; has received the Holy Spirit; and is walking in a new lifestyle; no longer the same. Offence will come on this Christian journey; but if we continue to hold onto God, He will turn our situation around; and YES, it is possible to have joy! Even in the midst of a storm! I am a witness! There is a place in God that is prepared just for you; not a place that you will be “tolerated”, or manipulated, or treated like an outcast; rather, a place in which you will be celebrated for who you are as a child of God; a place in which you will love to come together and worship God with your brothers and sisters; where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty! Psalm 84:11, “For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.” Remember, God wants the best for YOU!
“…condemn everyone they hate”. Spec in eye…log in own eye.
Thank you for Number 8. That alone is probably the main source of why I have stopped calling myself a Christian. Nor do I any longer align myself with those right-wing, rigid so-called believers who condemn everyone they hate, or fear or hold in contempt as “lower” people. I still have my deep, and abiding faith in my wonderful God. I still trust Him with my whole life. He knows me and I continue to study Him. But those so-called Christians… they are what has driven me from my Church.
I am very sorry that you have had that experience with the church. I am going to pray for God to lead you in a place of fellowship where you can be blessed and also be a blessing to the body. I encourage you not to lose your identity as a Christian based on the actions of others. A Christian is one who has accepted Christ as his or her Lord and Savior; has received the Holy Spirit; and is walking in a new lifestyle; no longer the same. Offence will come on this Christian journey; but if we continue to hold onto God, He will turn our situation around; and YES, it is possible to have joy! Even in the midst of a storm! I am a witness! There is a place in God that is prepared just for you; not a place that you will be “tolerated”, or manipulated, or treated like an outcast; rather, a place in which you will be celebrated for who you are as a child of God; a place in which you will love to come together and worship God with your brothers and sisters; where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty! Psalm 84:11, “For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.” Remember, God wants the best for YOU!
“…condemn everyone they hate”. Spec in eye…log in own eye.
Nan, I’m sorry for your struggle–sincerely! And I’m glad you “still trust Him with [your] whole life.” People are people everywhere we go. And God’ knows I know how bad people can hurt each other. But Christ’ church is part of his plan for our growth and mission. I hope you will find a place where you can connect and worship with other Christ-followers. Peace and Blessings!
Thank you for Number 8. That alone is probably the main source of why I have stopped calling myself a Christian. Nor do I any longer align myself with those right-wing, rigid so-called believers who condemn everyone they hate, or fear or hold in contempt as “lower” people. I still have my deep, and abiding faith in my wonderful God. I still trust Him with my whole life. He knows me and I continue to study Him. But those so-called Christians… they are what has driven me from my Church.
I am very sorry that you have had that experience with the church. I am going to pray for God to lead you in a place of fellowship where you can be blessed and also be a blessing to the body. I encourage you not to lose your identity as a Christian based on the actions of others. A Christian is one who has accepted Christ as his or her Lord and Savior; has received the Holy Spirit; and is walking in a new lifestyle; no longer the same. Offence will come on this Christian journey; but if we continue to hold onto God, He will turn our situation around; and YES, it is possible to have joy! Even in the midst of a storm! I am a witness! There is a place in God that is prepared just for you; not a place that you will be “tolerated”, or manipulated, or treated like an outcast; rather, a place in which you will be celebrated for who you are as a child of God; a place in which you will love to come together and worship God with your brothers and sisters; where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty! Psalm 84:11, “For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.” Remember, God wants the best for YOU!
“…condemn everyone they hate”. Spec in eye…log in own eye.
Nan, I’m sorry for your struggle–sincerely! And I’m glad you “still trust Him with [your] whole life.” People are people everywhere we go. And God’ knows I know how bad people can hurt each other. But Christ’ church is part of his plan for our growth and mission. I hope you will find a place where you can connect and worship with other Christ-followers. Peace and Blessings!
am concerned about d
pastor who specigically focus and concern about how to be welthy and prosper instead of caring about d welfare of d sheep is pastorring
am concerned about d
pastor who specigically focus and concern about how to be welthy and prosper instead of caring about d welfare of d sheep is pastorring
am concerned about d
pastor who specigically focus and concern about how to be welthy and prosper instead of caring about d welfare of d sheep is pastorring
I too am concerned about the negative broad strokes posted about pastors. For instance, programs (#1) may be one of the best tools in today’s society to get folks to come to church so that the gospel can be shared with them. If they don’t come, the mission of the church doesn’t mean a lot. Get them there and then make sure they understand God’s Plan of Salvation for their life.
I agree, Pastor Johnie!
I think the message was about being more concerned about programs versus bringing people closer to Jesus. Programs are good, but get the people in the church closer to God first.
The church is a gathering of believers for worshiping our Lord and for fellowship. God is the One Who adds to the number of those gathering. Focusing mainly on so called “seekers” is one of the causes of the demise of the body of Christ.
Pastor Johnie, Thanks for weighing in. Your comments are valuable. But I think this is the very thing we need to be challenging. The idea of getting people to church to hear the gospel isn’t wrong, so long as it’s being equally complimented with taking the gospel to the people where they live, work, and go to school, for instance. I’m concerned that when we make the church a chorus of programs centered around a building and such, people are burdened with activities and responsibilities that take them away from the most important mission: being the church in the communities where we live. Evangelism/discipleship needs to be taking place at the relationship level. The pulpit ministry isn’t neglected by any stretch of the imagination. The rhythms of gathering and going should compliment one another. Thanks again for your challenging thoughts. Blessings!
I too am concerned about the negative broad strokes posted about pastors. For instance, programs (#1) may be one of the best tools in today’s society to get folks to come to church so that the gospel can be shared with them. If they don’t come, the mission of the church doesn’t mean a lot. Get them there and then make sure they understand God’s Plan of Salvation for their life.
I agree, Pastor Johnie!
The church is a gathering of believers for worshiping our Lord and for fellowship. God is the One Who adds to the number of those gathering. Focusing mainly on so called “seekers” is one of the causes of the demise of the body of Christ.
Pastor Johnie, Thanks for weighing in. Your comments are valuable. But I think this is the very thing we need to be challenging. The idea of getting people to church to hear the gospel isn’t wrong, so long as it’s being equally complimented with taking the gospel to the people where they live, work, and go to school, for instance. I’m concerned that when we make the church a chorus of programs centered around a building and such, people are burdened with activities and responsibilities that take them away from the most important mission: being the church in the communities where we live. Evangelism/discipleship needs to be taking place at the relationship level. The pulpit ministry isn’t neglected by any stretch of the imagination. The rhythms of gathering and going should compliment one another. Thanks again for your challenging thoughts. Blessings!
I too am concerned about the negative broad strokes posted about pastors. For instance, programs (#1) may be one of the best tools in today’s society to get folks to come to church so that the gospel can be shared with them. If they don’t come, the mission of the church doesn’t mean a lot. Get them there and then make sure they understand God’s Plan of Salvation for their life.
I agree, Pastor Johnie!
I think the message was about being more concerned about programs versus bringing people closer to Jesus. Programs are good, but get the people in the church closer to God first.
The church is a gathering of believers for worshiping our Lord and for fellowship. God is the One Who adds to the number of those gathering. Focusing mainly on so called “seekers” is one of the causes of the demise of the body of Christ.
Pastor Johnie, Thanks for weighing in. Your comments are valuable. But I think this is the very thing we need to be challenging. The idea of getting people to church to hear the gospel isn’t wrong, so long as it’s being equally complimented with taking the gospel to the people where they live, work, and go to school, for instance. I’m concerned that when we make the church a chorus of programs centered around a building and such, people are burdened with activities and responsibilities that take them away from the most important mission: being the church in the communities where we live. Evangelism/discipleship needs to be taking place at the relationship level. The pulpit ministry isn’t neglected by any stretch of the imagination. The rhythms of gathering and going should compliment one another. Thanks again for your challenging thoughts. Blessings!
I agree with your concerns. Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? (Jeremiah 34:2). The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life has caused a many to go astray; seeking the creature more than the Creator; seeking God’s hand instead of His face; desiring bigger barns and not being content. Ministry is serious business. We face the issues of life and death everyday. We should take it serious, as serious as God the Father did when He gave His only begotten Son to save humanity.
Your list is very thorough. Sounds like ten things that we should pray about. What can we do? What shall we do? The problems have been articulated very well; but let us not stop short of addressing possible solutions to the healing process. I would like to see us go to the next level in terms of proposing some solution to address the problems. That would start off well to be guided in prayer and intercession.
So how can we who are concerned help one who has gone off the path of righteousness and who needs someone to intercede on behalf of the leader and the people. A godly example, someone who truly cares about the souls of humanity; someone who is not too high, too proud, nor too unmerciful, who seeks only restoration of such a one who is in error. The prophet Nathan in 2 Sam 12, teaches us how God handles situations dealing with the chosen ones that have fallen. Our concern will lead us to met them where they are at…we are One body with many members. And as a body, we care for the part that is weak; sometimes in the spirit of meekness and other times in strong rebuke. But even rebuke is a demonstration of God’s love when operating in love.
Valid concerns, thank you for sharing. Let’s get together and pray about it.
Rev Bennett,
Thanks for that. Concerns need solutions. Prayer and action are the two hands of our solution I think. Peace and Blessings!
I agree with your concerns. Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? (Jeremiah 34:2). The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life has caused a many to go astray; seeking the creature more than the Creator; seeking God’s hand instead of His face; desiring bigger barns and not being content. Ministry is serious business. We face the issues of life and death everyday. We should take it serious, as serious as God the Father did when He gave His only begotten Son to save humanity.
Your list is very thorough. Sounds like ten things that we should pray about. What can we do? What shall we do? The problems have been articulated very well; but let us not stop short of addressing possible solutions to the healing process. I would like to see us go to the next level in terms of proposing some solution to address the problems. That would start off well to be guided in prayer and intercession.
So how can we who are concerned help one who has gone off the path of righteousness and who needs someone to intercede on behalf of the leader and the people. A godly example, someone who truly cares about the souls of humanity; someone who is not too high, too proud, nor too unmerciful, who seeks only restoration of such a one who is in error. The prophet Nathan in 2 Sam 12, teaches us how God handles situations dealing with the chosen ones that have fallen. Our concern will lead us to met them where they are at…we are One body with many members. And as a body, we care for the part that is weak; sometimes in the spirit of meekness and other times in strong rebuke. But even rebuke is a demonstration of God’s love when operating in love.
Valid concerns, thank you for sharing. Let’s get together and pray about it.
Rev Bennett,
Thanks for that. Concerns need solutions. Prayer and action are the two hands of our solution I think. Peace and Blessings!
I agree with your concerns. Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? (Jeremiah 34:2). The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life has caused a many to go astray; seeking the creature more than the Creator; seeking God’s hand instead of His face; desiring bigger barns and not being content. Ministry is serious business. We face the issues of life and death everyday. We should take it serious, as serious as God the Father did when He gave His only begotten Son to save humanity.
Your list is very thorough. Sounds like ten things that we should pray about. What can we do? What shall we do? The problems have been articulated very well; but let us not stop short of addressing possible solutions to the healing process. I would like to see us go to the next level in terms of proposing some solution to address the problems. That would start off well to be guided in prayer and intercession.
So how can we who are concerned help one who has gone off the path of righteousness and who needs someone to intercede on behalf of the leader and the people. A godly example, someone who truly cares about the souls of humanity; someone who is not too high, too proud, nor too unmerciful, who seeks only restoration of such a one who is in error. The prophet Nathan in 2 Sam 12, teaches us how God handles situations dealing with the chosen ones that have fallen. Our concern will lead us to met them where they are at…we are One body with many members. And as a body, we care for the part that is weak; sometimes in the spirit of meekness and other times in strong rebuke. But even rebuke is a demonstration of God’s love when operating in love.
Valid concerns, thank you for sharing. Let’s get together and pray about it.
Rev Bennett,
Thanks for that. Concerns need solutions. Prayer and action are the two hands of our solution I think. Peace and Blessings!
Lately, I’ve been thinking about the Great Commission and wonder if we haven’t skipped over a very important word, the word “Go!” Has the church become such an organization of programs that we have changed the word from “go” to “come?” Come join this program, or come hear this speaker is so common. Maybe not having a church facility to congregate in or to maintain would allow the church to GO!!! I believe if we go out and meet people where they are, they will truly see Jesus!
Brian, I think you’re on to something! “Has the church become such an organization of programs that we have changed the word from “go” to “come?”” is a question that deserves an answer… or better yet, a finger pointing us to the answer already provided in Scripture. Thanks for speaking up! Blessings!
Lately, I’ve been thinking about the Great Commission and wonder if we haven’t skipped over a very important word, the word “Go!” Has the church become such an organization of programs that we have changed the word from “go” to “come?” Come join this program, or come hear this speaker is so common. Maybe not having a church facility to congregate in or to maintain would allow the church to GO!!! I believe if we go out and meet people where they are, they will truly see Jesus!
Amen!!
Lately, I’ve been thinking about the Great Commission and wonder if we haven’t skipped over a very important word, the word “Go!” Has the church become such an organization of programs that we have changed the word from “go” to “come?” Come join this program, or come hear this speaker is so common. Maybe not having a church facility to congregate in or to maintain would allow the church to GO!!! I believe if we go out and meet people where they are, they will truly see Jesus!
Amen!!
Brian, I think you’re on to something! “Has the church become such an organization of programs that we have changed the word from “go” to “come?”” is a question that deserves an answer… or better yet, a finger pointing us to the answer already provided in Scripture. Thanks for speaking up! Blessings!
I am concerned about pastors who value man’s writings as on the same level as Scripture and lead his congregation to follow the ideas and programs of man.
I am concerned about pastors who value man’s writings as on the same level as Scripture and lead his congregation to follow the ideas and programs of man.
I am concerned about pastors who value man’s writings as on the same level as Scripture and lead his congregation to follow the ideas and programs of man.
I’m concern about pastors that pays himself a descent wage with paid vacations so they can get “refreshed”, and use the rest of the church income for the building (their legacy), while everyone that works in the different ministries within the church are volunteering, and some spend more hours than the pastor and they’re doing it for free; especially single moms that makes only minimum wage are also volunteering. Pastors need to be the example to their local church. I see not much accountability with pastors most of the time, when people see something weird; they won’t bring it up because they’ll be accused of gossiping, and they rather leave the church with a smile pretend that everything is okay. Church members are being trained to be naive. Pastoral authority shouldn’t be used for selfish reasons.
I’m concern about pastors that pays himself a descent wage with paid vacations so they can get “refreshed”, and use the rest of the church income for the building (their legacy), while everyone that works in the different ministries within the church are volunteering, and some spend more hours than the pastor and they’re doing it for free; especially single moms that makes only minimum wage are also volunteering. Pastors need to be the example to their local church. I see not much accountability with pastors most of the time, when people see something weird; they won’t bring it up because they’ll be accused of gossiping, and they rather leave the church with a smile pretend that everything is okay. Church members are being trained to be naive. Pastoral authority shouldn’t be used for selfish reasons.
Well said and right. The early church never even had a head pastor.
I’m concern about pastors that pays himself a descent wage with paid vacations so they can get “refreshed”, and use the rest of the church income for the building (their legacy), while everyone that works in the different ministries within the church are volunteering, and some spend more hours than the pastor and they’re doing it for free; especially single moms that makes only minimum wage are also volunteering. Pastors need to be the example to their local church. I see not much accountability with pastors most of the time, when people see something weird; they won’t bring it up because they’ll be accused of gossiping, and they rather leave the church with a smile pretend that everything is okay. Church members are being trained to be naive. Pastoral authority shouldn’t be used for selfish reasons.
Well said and right. The early church never even had a head pastor.
Indeed.
While I share your concerns it also troubles me that we talk about this in terms of pastors rather than in terms of the church as though the situation were “good church – bad pastors”. Let me give just one example:
You write of your concern with pastors who view the church as a stepping stone. I share your concern [In fact research confirms what is just common sense: congregations tend to benefit from pastors serving in the same church for long periods of time]. But, as someone in his 50s, may I point out that the young men coming out of seminary are routinely (even repetitively) told that churches are looking for someone with an MDiv and 5 years experience. So when they go to a church to get 5 years experience in order to move on to a larger church we should remember that they didn’t create this situation – we did.
We should also look in the mirror when we complain about pastors moving to new churches for more money. In the vast majority of cases this isn’t because they were making $95,000 per year and want to make $140,000 per year. It is because they are under tremendous financial pressure to simply pay for the necessities of life.
If we create a system that (depending upon the denomination) refuses to pay for seminary so that students borrow tens of thousands of dollars, then refuse to hire the graduates until they have 5 or more years of experience, and pay them so little that 75% of pastors wives wish they would leave the ministry for any other job; then we shouldn’t complain when pastors accept a call simply because they need to gain experience and move on to a better paying church as soon as they can. The fault lies neither in the stars nor with these young men but with ourselves.
David, you’re right about the system being broken. Hopefully, conversations like these will prompt us to explore the solutions. Thanks for commenting. Blessings!
While I share your concerns it also troubles me that we talk about this in terms of pastors rather than in terms of the church as though the situation were “good church – bad pastors”. Let me give just one example:
You write of your concern with pastors who view the church as a stepping stone. I share your concern [In fact research confirms what is just common sense: congregations tend to benefit from pastors serving in the same church for long periods of time]. But, as someone in his 50s, may I point out that the young men coming out of seminary are routinely (even repetitively) told that churches are looking for someone with an MDiv and 5 years experience. So when they go to a church to get 5 years experience in order to move on to a larger church we should remember that they didn’t create this situation – we did.
We should also look in the mirror when we complain about pastors moving to new churches for more money. In the vast majority of cases this isn’t because they were making $95,000 per year and want to make $140,000 per year. It is because they are under tremendous financial pressure to simply pay for the necessities of life.
If we create a system that (depending upon the denomination) refuses to pay for seminary so that students borrow tens of thousands of dollars, then refuse to hire the graduates until they have 5 or more years of experience, and pay them so little that 75% of pastors wives wish they would leave the ministry for any other job; then we shouldn’t complain when pastors accept a call simply because they need to gain experience and move on to a better paying church as soon as they can. The fault lies neither in the stars nor with these young men but with ourselves.
Good word. I have lots of friends in this boat. I can confirm this is true.
David, you’re right about the system being broken. Hopefully, conversations like these will prompt us to explore the solutions. Thanks for commenting. Blessings!
I’m concerned about the pastor that considers celebrity over humility. The incessant drive to be on radio, TV, published in articles and books, giving seminars and workshops, leading tour groups are temptations toward significance and notoriety that Jesus never meant His shepherds to bear. “Feed my sheep” is not a suggestion, but a command.
eceaser45, Don’t get me going on the “celebrity” pastor thing… So many are in love with the “glamour” of the ministry, but it’s those who role up their sleeves and get into the “gutter” that are actually doing ministry. One takes a celebrity and the other takes humility. Great point you made. Blessings!
I’m concerned about the pastor that considers celebrity over humility. The incessant drive to be on radio, TV, published in articles and books, giving seminars and workshops, leading tour groups are temptations toward significance and notoriety that Jesus never meant His shepherds to bear. “Feed my sheep” is not a suggestion, but a command.
eceaser45, Don’t get me going on the “celebrity” pastor thing… So many are in love with the “glamour” of the ministry, but it’s those who role up their sleeves and get into the “gutter” that are actually doing ministry. One takes a celebrity and the other takes humility. Great point you made. Blessings!
If you go to Africa you’ll find thousands come and stand to hear the word of God. The church has become to overly concerned with first making people confortable. Cushioned seats, heating, ac…none of these things matter in other parts of the world! Why? Because we are fat and full of God so much that we can hardly function! Other parts of the world are a starving for His words! It is time to GO!!!! Preaching the good news does not need a building! Or so elaborate of buildings! Here is the sad truth. If Christmas cane today to preach…He would not enter one of these modern day buildings! He would be in the streets meeting them where they are!!!!!! We need to stop serving ourselves and start serving the lost. The modern church is a failure. THERE MUST BE….A BETTER WAY!
Jennifer, So true! It is time to GO!!!! Preaching the good news does not need a building! Peace and Blessings!
If you go to Africa you’ll find thousands come and stand to hear the word of God. The church has become to overly concerned with first making people confortable. Cushioned seats, heating, ac…none of these things matter in other parts of the world! Why? Because we are fat and full of God so much that we can hardly function! Other parts of the world are a starving for His words! It is time to GO!!!! Preaching the good news does not need a building! Or so elaborate of buildings! Here is the sad truth. If Christmas cane today to preach…He would not enter one of these modern day buildings! He would be in the streets meeting them where they are!!!!!! We need to stop serving ourselves and start serving the lost. The modern church is a failure. THERE MUST BE….A BETTER WAY!
Jennifer, So true! It is time to GO!!!! Preaching the good news does not need a building! Peace and Blessings!
I’ve been telling people this for years and many pastors have stopped me from preaching in their pulpits because of it. I don’t mind. It’s a good thing if you don’t “fit in”. Lol. Great article. I shared it on FB, Twitter, Pinterest, and Google+
Thanks, Rev. Esther R. Scott. Blessings!
I’ve been telling people this for years and many pastors have stopped me from preaching in their pulpits because of it. I don’t mind. It’s a good thing if you don’t “fit in”. Lol. Great article. I shared it on FB, Twitter, Pinterest, and Google+
Thanks, Rev. Esther R. Scott. Blessings!
I’ve been telling people this for years and many pastors have stopped me from preaching in their pulpits because of it. I don’t mind. It’s a good thing if you don’t “fit in”. Lol. Great article. I shared it on FB, Twitter, Pinterest, and Google+
Thanks, Rev. Esther R. Scott. Blessings!
Mtv has a sound system? Are they live??? Anyway…. God definitely had a lot of fun commanding men in the Old Testament to build temples or armies or assemble musicians together with great detail. Not so sure the gathering together is a bad thing as we are commanded to do this. I think when our focus becomes out of balance then we are not fullfilling God’s plan. The person who said Jesus would not step into our church if He were here maybe right but the fact is He is here in our church. God’s word will not return void. We are not perfect but His word is. Focus on it and let the minirlstry have its versatility. Many diverse gifts to many people. Don’t let pastors abuse their roles and praise God for all His blessings in our lives.
Pastors have taken (have usurped) the other church’s ministries, like teacher, prophets etc. A pastor strictly speaking is a person who takes the sheep to green pastures. The sheep in the real world will uproot the grass to the point of nothing in the soil, therefore the need to always moving the sheep to where the grass is green. This means the pastor is not the grass, just the guide to it. No one pastor will have all the answers (he is not the grass) but he can use all of the resources on the other church ministries to advance the word of God to the sheep first in his church and then prepare those sheep to “multiply’ themselves through spiritual procreation. The pastor in nature does not give birth to sheep, sheep gives birth to sheep. But nowadays instead of pastors we have celebrities that happen to be pastor or preaches. The new generation worships man and stature, in the west we look toward someone, with fame,ability, money etc. We do this because we live vicariously through the achievements of others (sports is an example) and the church is no different, the administrators of our denominations have ben systematically working to build a man worshiping celebrity system head by the top CEO, the pastor. This is anti-biblical and anti-evangelical in its origins, but it is the world in which we live and therefore our reality. What can be done by any of us including yourself?; nothing…it is just the way the christian culture has evolved in the past two hundred years! A new revolution (revival) of the minds of the sheep has to take place and since it is not administration friendly none of you pastors, leaders and board of trustees are going to do any thing about it less of all like it. Like you, many are starting to recognize the problem, some just can’t bare to continue being inauthentic believers and leave, others resign themselves and go with the flow. The ones that seek authentic faith in the Gospel, will eventually brake off from main stream Chrstiandome and renew their minds for Christ. They will be virtually cohesive though not visible and they, not the established organized church, will advance the Gospel of Christ to this postmodern world. Many will come to Christ personally and not socially, you won’t see them, (you won’t get their 10% either) but they will be there, at work, at school , at social infrastructures, neighborhoods, jails , hospitals and far away lands. In the end, you nor I will help out the sovereign will of God and his true church (believers), God will do this without you and me, we can help for sure but in this case we would have to completely renew our minds first before we can bring our bodies in living sacrifice to Christ. And that my friend…takes time!
http://tiopapo43.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/ezekiel-9/
Mtv has a sound system? Are they live??? Anyway…. God definitely had a lot of fun commanding men in the Old Testament to build temples or armies or assemble musicians together with great detail. Not so sure the gathering together is a bad thing as we are commanded to do this. I think when our focus becomes out of balance then we are not fullfilling God’s plan. The person who said Jesus would not step into our church if He were here maybe right but the fact is He is here in our church. God’s word will not return void. We are not perfect but His word is. Focus on it and let the minirlstry have its versatility. Many diverse gifts to many people. Don’t let pastors abuse their roles and praise God for all His blessings in our lives.
Doug, rightly said: “I think when our focus becomes out of balance then we are not fullfilling God’s plan.” Thanks for sharing. Blessings!
Mtv has a sound system? Are they live??? Anyway…. God definitely had a lot of fun commanding men in the Old Testament to build temples or armies or assemble musicians together with great detail. Not so sure the gathering together is a bad thing as we are commanded to do this. I think when our focus becomes out of balance then we are not fullfilling God’s plan. The person who said Jesus would not step into our church if He were here maybe right but the fact is He is here in our church. God’s word will not return void. We are not perfect but His word is. Focus on it and let the minirlstry have its versatility. Many diverse gifts to many people. Don’t let pastors abuse their roles and praise God for all His blessings in our lives.
Doug, rightly said: “I think when our focus becomes out of balance then we are not fullfilling God’s plan.” Thanks for sharing. Blessings!
Pastors have taken (have usurped) the other church’s ministries, like teacher, prophets etc. A pastor strictly speaking is a person who takes the sheep to green pastures. The sheep in the real world will uproot the grass to the point of nothing in the soil, therefore the need to always moving the sheep to where the grass is green. This means the pastor is not the grass, just the guide to it. No one pastor will have all the answers (he is not the grass) but he can use all of the resources on the other church ministries to advance the word of God to the sheep first in his church and then prepare those sheep to “multiply’ themselves through spiritual procreation. The pastor in nature does not give birth to sheep, sheep gives birth to sheep. But nowadays instead of pastors we have celebrities that happen to be pastor or preaches. The new generation worships man and stature, in the west we look toward someone, with fame,ability, money etc. We do this because we live vicariously through the achievements of others (sports is an example) and the church is no different, the administrators of our denominations have ben systematically working to build a man worshiping celebrity system head by the top CEO, the pastor. This is anti-biblical and anti-evangelical in its origins, but it is the world in which we live and therefore our reality. What can be done by any of us including yourself?; nothing…it is just the way the christian culture has evolved in the past two hundred years! A new revolution (revival) of the minds of the sheep has to take place and since it is not administration friendly none of you pastors, leaders and board of trustees are going to do any thing about it less of all like it. Like you, many are starting to recognize the problem, some just can’t bare to continue being inauthentic believers and leave, others resign themselves and go with the flow. The ones that seek authentic faith in the Gospel, will eventually brake off from main stream Chrstiandome and renew their minds for Christ. They will be virtually cohesive though not visible and they, not the established organized church, will advance the Gospel of Christ to this postmodern world. Many will come to Christ personally and not socially, you won’t see them, (you won’t get their 10% either) but they will be there, at work, at school , at social infrastructures, neighborhoods, jails , hospitals and far away lands. In the end, you nor I will help out the sovereign will of God and his true church (believers), God will do this without you and me, we can help for sure but in this case we would have to completely renew our minds first before we can bring our bodies in living sacrifice to Christ. And that my friend…takes time!
http://tiopapo43.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/ezekiel-9/
Terrance, Thank you for the encouraging words. I’m glad I could be one of the catalysts to help start this particular conversation. Be blessed!
Thanks, Damon. I know I often need to be reminded of these concerns. Peace!
Just one simple thing God does not seem to matter with pastors anymore only money and mega churches .No one preaches about sin anymore. Just that simple.
Just one simple thing God does not seem to matter with pastors anymore only money and mega churches .No one preaches about sin anymore. Just that simple.
Isaac,
Yes! I whole-heartedly agree, especially with your statement that “.there are some pretty good pastors who do excellent exegesis and are very genuine Christian servants spread about the island in various denominations.” I’m thankful for every pastor who is preaching the gospel of Jesus for the glory of God. Blessings!
Bill, what a painful truth: “Sola Scripura and sola fide are secondary to slick programs.” Thanks for sharing. Blessings!
Often when things go wrong or go in a difficult and struggling way, we do tend to blame one another, parents, presidents, pastors, anyone.
John, The blame game is a terrible way to live. We have to start by looking in the mirror for sure. Thanks for raising that point. Blessings!
Often when things go wrong or go in a difficult and struggling way, we do tend to blame one another, parents, presidents, pastors, anyone.
Often when things go wrong or go in a difficult and struggling way, we do tend to blame one another, parents, presidents, pastors, anyone.
John, The blame game is a terrible way to live. We have to start by looking in the mirror for sure. Thanks for raising that point. Blessings!
Great to raise all these points. It may be good if your article made it clear that by the ‘church declining’ you mean the ‘western church’ or ‘US church.’ I understand that in many parts of the world it is growing rapidly. You may be accidentally leaving readers with the impression you are not aware about the other parts of the World.
On a different note many pastors who fall into the categories you mention are having a large and negative impact on the Church in Africa. I work in Tanzania and this is big issue here. It is not just the propagation of the prosperity gospel, but other things also – much like on your list. There are TV channels that often are all pastors have for training, yet which do not often contain sound theology. Those who live day to day in poverty and without material insurance for health and so on are very vulnerable to being seduced by visions of wealthy churches and pastors.
The western church needs I think, in this age of technology and the internet take a long hard look at the projected image of Christianity it leaves globally and then look in the mirror and ask ‘is God or man being glorified, do we give off the aroma of Christ or something else?’
Great to raise all these points. It may be good if your article made it clear that by the ‘church declining’ you mean the ‘western church’ or ‘US church.’ I understand that in many parts of the world it is growing rapidly. You may be accidentally leaving readers with the impression you are not aware about the other parts of the World.
On a different note many pastors who fall into the categories you mention are having a large and negative impact on the Church in Africa. I work in Tanzania and this is big issue here. It is not just the propagation of the prosperity gospel, but other things also – much like on your list. There are TV channels that often are all pastors have for training, yet which do not often contain sound theology. Those who live day to day in poverty and without material insurance for health and so on are very vulnerable to being seduced by visions of wealthy churches and pastors.
The western church needs I think, in this age of technology and the internet take a long hard look at the projected image of Christianity it leaves globally and then look in the mirror and ask ‘is God or man being glorified, do we give off the aroma of Christ or something else?’
Rachel, You have a valid point. I didn’t specify the western church in my article. But you’re right that is where the primary emphasis of this article is focused. However, Many of the comments reveal some of these issues are affecting the church world-wide. Perhaps the western model is more influential in the wrong ways than it should be. Thanks for contributing to the conversation. Peace and grace.
We live in Church age when gimmicks programs technology and musical concerts are accredited to the growth of a church
When ministries value there structure and order of service more then Prayer and the Presents of God, and numbers validate there success verses transformation and holiness we see the church being taught the Word of God week after week but the people continuing to live the same as though they never received this His precious Word
• I ask the Lord how can this be and He said my people who are called by my name have built themselves Idols in the form of Churches and denominations they worship structure and order and call it My House but yet in vane the worship Me with there lips but there hearts are far from Me
• My heart broke for the house of the Lord and I Cried out for his people for days I had no peace even in that secret place Then the word of the lord came to me again
Isa 66:1-2
Thus says the LORD:
“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
2 For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the LORD.
“But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.
• You see friends The lord is looking for hearts that are broken to hear His Word he is not looking for Church buildings Church structures Church orders He is looking for broken heart to build His House in where he can find rest and be at peace within the body of Christ
• I ask Him what should I do Papa he said pray for my People that there hearts will see my desires to rest in them and that my Word will manifest, as I ought to in there lives
Col 4:2-4
Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving;
3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains,
4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.
• What the church in America Lacks is Persistent vigilant Prayer so Gods word can manifest, in the hearts of the Church body and not just in a building over a pulpit on Sunday and Wednesday night
Please pray for God word to manifest in the heart of the Church Body
The Lord is looking for hearts to dwell in not programs and buildings the holy spirit is looking for a place he can reside and rest in peace but we are so busy running around looking for the next program or teaching that will make us feel good and prosperous and we wonder why God is not moving in our lives and churches like the book of ACTS
• Why would the comforter come to comfort a church in there comfort Zone a church unwilling to humble themselves and step out to be a witness to a lost and dieing world
We live in Church age when gimmicks programs technology and musical concerts are accredited to the growth of a church
When ministries value there structure and order of service more then Prayer and the Presents of God, and numbers validate there success verses transformation and holiness we see the church being taught the Word of God week after week but the people continuing to live the same as though they never received this His precious Word
• I ask the Lord how can this be and He said my people who are called by my name have built themselves Idols in the form of Churches and denominations they worship structure and order and call it My House but yet in vane the worship Me with there lips but there hearts are far from Me
• My heart broke for the house of the Lord and I Cried out for his people for days I had no peace even in that secret place Then the word of the lord came to me again
Isa 66:1-2
Thus says the LORD:
“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
2 For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the LORD.
“But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.
• You see friends The lord is looking for hearts that are broken to hear His Word he is not looking for Church buildings Church structures Church orders He is looking for broken heart to build His House in where he can find rest and be at peace within the body of Christ
• I ask Him what should I do Papa he said pray for my People that there hearts will see my desires to rest in them and that my Word will manifest, as I ought to in there lives
Col 4:2-4
Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving;
3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains,
4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.
• What the church in America Lacks is Persistent vigilant Prayer so Gods word can manifest, in the hearts of the Church body and not just in a building over a pulpit on Sunday and Wednesday night
Please pray for God word to manifest in the heart of the Church Body
The Lord is looking for hearts to dwell in not programs and buildings the holy spirit is looking for a place he can reside and rest in peace but we are so busy running around looking for the next program or teaching that will make us feel good and prosperous and we wonder why God is not moving in our lives and churches like the book of ACTS
• Why would the comforter come to comfort a church in there comfort Zone a church unwilling to humble themselves and step out to be a witness to a lost and dieing world
A Great thought: “Numbers validate there (sic) success verses transformation and holiness…” The standard of measure, or score card, if you will, reveals the priorities of the church. We definitely need a new score card. Blessings!
Thanks Scott great points and timely
Thanks Scott great points and timely
Thanks Scott great points and timely
Good word brother. It’s a list to keep in front of all of us at all times. God help us in the west to love the church and critique her with the same heart. I think you did it well. I would add that we should be concerned about pastors who are there for the sake of it being “good career move” instead of a calling. Or the pastor who is “coasting into retirement” with a sweet small church gig. Pastoring is never a good career move or a gig that floats us into blissful retirement. The list could go on, but I think you summed it up well. And I agree with some of these other comments about the church in the west being the one that’s declining. She has spent around $300 billion over the last decade and has declined. Who in the world would spend that kind of money on something that is declining. Maybe it’s the money we are pouring “into” them that’s hindering them. We need to learn from our past and make proper changes instead of defending what we’re doing and the ways we are doing them. God’s bride will continue to burn bright, but it may not come from the church model that we think.
Good word brother. It’s a list to keep in front of all of us at all times. God help us in the west to love the church and critique her with the same heart. I think you did it well. I would add that we should be concerned about pastors who are there for the sake of it being “good career move” instead of a calling. Or the pastor who is “coasting into retirement” with a sweet small church gig. Pastoring is never a good career move or a gig that floats us into blissful retirement. The list could go on, but I think you summed it up well. And I agree with some of these other comments about the church in the west being the one that’s declining. She has spent around $300 billion over the last decade and has declined. Who in the world would spend that kind of money on something that is declining. Maybe it’s the money we are pouring “into” them that’s hindering them. We need to learn from our past and make proper changes instead of defending what we’re doing and the ways we are doing them. God’s bride will continue to burn bright, but it may not come from the church model that we think.
Jeff Skeens, Thanks for your comments. You’re so right: “God’s bride will continue to burn bright, but it may not come from the church model that we think.” Blessings!
Good word brother. It’s a list to keep in front of all of us at all times. God help us in the west to love the church and critique her with the same heart. I think you did it well. I would add that we should be concerned about pastors who are there for the sake of it being “good career move” instead of a calling. Or the pastor who is “coasting into retirement” with a sweet small church gig. Pastoring is never a good career move or a gig that floats us into blissful retirement. The list could go on, but I think you summed it up well. And I agree with some of these other comments about the church in the west being the one that’s declining. She has spent around $300 billion over the last decade and has declined. Who in the world would spend that kind of money on something that is declining. Maybe it’s the money we are pouring “into” them that’s hindering them. We need to learn from our past and make proper changes instead of defending what we’re doing and the ways we are doing them. God’s bride will continue to burn bright, but it may not come from the church model that we think.
Jeff Skeens, Thanks for your comments. You’re so right: “God’s bride will continue to burn bright, but it may not come from the church model that we think.” Blessings!
Well put, and thank you
Thank you for reading, Deacon Jackson. Blessing!
Well put, and thank you
Well put, and thank you
Thank you for reading, Deacon Jackson. Blessing!
Awesome article, thank you and praise God! I’m sure your list of 10 wasn’t meant to be exhaustive. As other commenters have already done, we can keep adding to it. I, for one, am also concerned about pastors who allow non-believing celebrities endorse their ministries. If Opray Winfrey endorses your church and your books, then clearly your ministry (as you’ve pointed out) lacks conviction of sin. Thank you for your article and your blog. I’m so glad The Lord led me to it today. God bless!
Sister Davis, Thanks for adding to the conversation. That’s an interesting thought I’ve never considered (probably because a celebrity has never offered to endorsed me 🙂 ). But you’re right. And you’re also right that this is by no means an exhaustive list. Hopefully, it has started a conversation though. Thanks for joining it. Grace and peace!
Awesome article, thank you and praise God! I’m sure your list of 10 wasn’t meant to be exhaustive. As other commenters have already done, we can keep adding to it. I, for one, am also concerned about pastors who allow non-believing celebrities endorse their ministries. If Opray Winfrey endorses your church and your books, then clearly your ministry (as you’ve pointed out) lacks conviction of sin. Thank you for your article and your blog. I’m so glad The Lord led me to it today. God bless!
Awesome article, thank you and praise God! I’m sure your list of 10 wasn’t meant to be exhaustive. As other commenters have already done, we can keep adding to it. I, for one, am also concerned about pastors who allow non-believing celebrities endorse their ministries. If Opray Winfrey endorses your church and your books, then clearly your ministry (as you’ve pointed out) lacks conviction of sin. Thank you for your article and your blog. I’m so glad The Lord led me to it today. God bless!
Sister Davis, Thanks for adding to the conversation. That’s an interesting thought I’ve never considered (probably because a celebrity has never offered to endorsed me 🙂 ). But you’re right. And you’re also right that this is by no means an exhaustive list. Hopefully, it has started a conversation though. Thanks for joining it. Grace and peace!
Some great points, but I have to say in my experience most of the things you’ve listed are brought on by the congregations. You began this post by mentioning the decline of the church, but then list many things pastors do to keep members. People want programs, in fact many people leaves one church to join the one with all the programs. Likewise they will leave one church to join the one with the million dollar sound and light system with a CEO/pastor that delivers “self-help” or you’re not so bad messages. Often pastors must possess a masters degree to be hired and if the church doesn’t grow in numbers he may be fired. Often members want to hear how bad sin is but not that they are sinning. Consumerism (covetousness) hits too close to home and so it becomes a matter of playing to your audience and their culture. Some church cultures prefer to pick on certain things maybe alcohol, but ignore the gossip that goes on or homosexuality, but ignore the gluttony (obesity) in the church. Even as some are reading this they are offended by my words because we don’t want our “it’s not so bad” sins mentioned when there is a sinful world outside to talk about. You make excellent points and but I think it is only fare to share the blame with us, the people who are the church. Many (hopefully all) pastors love people and sometimes make bad decisions because of that love, forgetting that loving people is not loving God, but rather loving God makes us love people.
I have to agree with John above. Speaking from first hand exp in the issue, and why I home church, The Congregational or the Board dictates what goes on as well. I see no mention of this in your article. I have had to do all the above you have mentioned at one time or another. I’m not saying that what you have written isn’t true, but I’m presuming you are not a pastor or or trained as such. I do agree with what you are saying for the most part, but you have to take into account as well ( Congregations and various boards and such Regardless on what you call them)
and don’t forget too if you are a part of a denomination that’s a whole different ball game. I also believe that the mega churches where built from Satan not GOD. But that is another article.
Rev. Ron,
Thanks for adding value to the conversation. Just a couple of additional thoughts might provide some clarity. You are right that there are many other factors to consider, but those are beyond the scope of this article. Keep in mind a blog article tends to be more generalized, informal, and limited in its scope. If everything that should be discussed was presented, it would be a book :). Additionally, I too have struggled with and wrestled through many of the points I made in the article through my years as a pastor and church planter. We all come to Christ and into his bride via human instruments (i.e. churches, people, denominations) as directed by the Spirit. So we all have to navigate the ideas, traditions, and assumptions of the human agents in Christ’s kingdom as we grow in our knowledge of the Scriptures and our relationship with Christ. Hopefully, this article challenges us all to be aware and seek the Lord’s leadership in our own. Blessings, my friend.
John, You have a valid point that many of these issues are promoted and sustained by the congregation. Obviously, we can’t address issue in a single blog post, but thanks for adding that point to the conversation. Blessings!
Some great points, but I have to say in my experience most of the things you’ve listed are brought on by the congregations. You began this post by mentioning the decline of the church, but then list many things pastors do to keep members. People want programs, in fact many people leaves one church to join the one with all the programs. Likewise they will leave one church to join the one with the million dollar sound and light system with a CEO/pastor that delivers “self-help” or you’re not so bad messages. Often pastors must possess a masters degree to be hired and if the church doesn’t grow in numbers he may be fired. Often members want to hear how bad sin is but not that they are sinning. Consumerism (covetousness) hits too close to home and so it becomes a matter of playing to your audience and their culture. Some church cultures prefer to pick on certain things maybe alcohol, but ignore the gossip that goes on or homosexuality, but ignore the gluttony (obesity) in the church. Even as some are reading this they are offended by my words because we don’t want our “it’s not so bad” sins mentioned when there is a sinful world outside to talk about. You make excellent points and but I think it is only fare to share the blame with us, the people who are the church. Many (hopefully all) pastors love people and sometimes make bad decisions because of that love, forgetting that loving people is not loving God, but rather loving God makes us love people.
I have to agree with John above. Speaking from first hand exp in the issue, and why I home church, The Congregational or the Board dictates what goes on as well. I see no mention of this in your article. I have had to do all the above you have mentioned at one time or another. I’m not saying that what you have written isn’t true, but I’m presuming you are not a pastor or or trained as such. I do agree with what you are saying for the most part, but you have to take into account as well ( Congregations and various boards and such Regardless on what you call them)
and don’t forget too if you are a part of a denomination that’s a whole different ball game. I also believe that the mega churches where built from Satan not GOD. But that is another article.
Some great points, but I have to say in my experience most of the things you’ve listed are brought on by the congregations. You began this post by mentioning the decline of the church, but then list many things pastors do to keep members. People want programs, in fact many people leaves one church to join the one with all the programs. Likewise they will leave one church to join the one with the million dollar sound and light system with a CEO/pastor that delivers “self-help” or you’re not so bad messages. Often pastors must possess a masters degree to be hired and if the church doesn’t grow in numbers he may be fired. Often members want to hear how bad sin is but not that they are sinning. Consumerism (covetousness) hits too close to home and so it becomes a matter of playing to your audience and their culture. Some church cultures prefer to pick on certain things maybe alcohol, but ignore the gossip that goes on or homosexuality, but ignore the gluttony (obesity) in the church. Even as some are reading this they are offended by my words because we don’t want our “it’s not so bad” sins mentioned when there is a sinful world outside to talk about. You make excellent points and but I think it is only fare to share the blame with us, the people who are the church. Many (hopefully all) pastors love people and sometimes make bad decisions because of that love, forgetting that loving people is not loving God, but rather loving God makes us love people.
I have to agree with John above. Speaking from first hand exp in the issue, and why I home church, The Congregational or the Board dictates what goes on as well. I see no mention of this in your article. I have had to do all the above you have mentioned at one time or another. I’m not saying that what you have written isn’t true, but I’m presuming you are not a pastor or or trained as such. I do agree with what you are saying for the most part, but you have to take into account as well ( Congregations and various boards and such Regardless on what you call them)
and don’t forget too if you are a part of a denomination that’s a whole different ball game. I also believe that the mega churches where built from Satan not GOD. But that is another article.
Rev. Ron,
Thanks for adding value to the conversation. Just a couple of additional thoughts might provide some clarity. You are right that there are many other factors to consider, but those are beyond the scope of this article. Keep in mind a blog article tends to be more generalized, informal, and limited in its scope. If everything that should be discussed was presented, it would be a book :). Additionally, I too have struggled with and wrestled through many of the points I made in the article through my years as a pastor and church planter. We all come to Christ and into his bride via human instruments (i.e. churches, people, denominations) as directed by the Spirit. So we all have to navigate the ideas, traditions, and assumptions of the human agents in Christ’s kingdom as we grow in our knowledge of the Scriptures and our relationship with Christ. Hopefully, this article challenges us all to be aware and seek the Lord’s leadership in our own. Blessings, my friend.
John, You have a valid point that many of these issues are promoted and sustained by the congregation. Obviously, we can’t address issue in a single blog post, but thanks for adding that point to the conversation. Blessings!
Are You Saying That ALL Building Is Bad…Even If You Need The Space, And dont Plan On Building A Taj Mahal?
Are You Saying That ALL Building Is Bad…Even If You Need The Space, And dont Plan On Building A Taj Mahal?
Christ’ church is part of the plan. But I don’t believe what the modern western “church” is today is Christ’ church. I think you would be more likely to find a group of actual believers, get together in someone’s basement and study to actually grow closer to the Lord. Modern church is an abusivedictatorial money machine that makes me disgusted every time I think about it.
I have lived all around the country (US), for 18 years I was in “churches” of all shapes and sizes, and 99.9% of them were sadly exactly what I see the concerns listed by Scott and the comments.
I too have come to no longer wish or choose to be associated with the term “christian” because modern definition is not the biblical definition. Christians were meant to be Christ followers, or like Christ. But that’s not what it means today. The modern definition of “Christian” is most readily associated with hate. The modern church should be ashamed for allowing themselves to become full of pit-vipers and false prophets. Do we forget Jesus’ anger in the temples? The money collectors? How many sundays wasted listening to “money making lectures” under the guise of “tithing”.
Let us not focus only on pastors though for they are men to, we cannot say that pastors are the downfall of the church. More often I have seen the deacons (or bishops or what have you) be the true problem. Pastors who are held hostage by “doctrine”. I’ve watched as good men are let go because they don’t “play nice” with the leaders, or aren’t pushing hard enough for people to give money.
To all I would only wish blessings to those that won’t just sit back as the church is supplanted from within by men with wicked hearts. But modern church I do not believe can recover. It’s the bible study amongst friends, the small groups, those who gather in fellowship to celebrate the Lord who are truly in the presence of the Lord on earth.
As others have said, God said GO, not “have them come”… western church has become lazy. Programs are great and all, to serve to bring fellowship and community amongst the believers. But those that have all of these “fancy” programs under the guise of outreach… you’re fooling yourselves if you think that’s what God intended. Where did he say “They’ll know you by the size of your churches, how expensive your pastors car is, how many fancy programs you have, big concerts, and by the nice white caps on your teeth while you’re on tv”? no “34″A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35″By THIS all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
There is no love in the modern western church. Doctrine is used to abuse and enslave believers into submission. I weep for the current state… I don’t believe it’s beyond hope, but I believe the “modern church” is well beyond hope. Greed is too far entrenched.
But I don’t think we’re beyond loving each other. The true believers need to stand up, and reject this “prosperity preaching”, reject the hate preaching, reject the greed, reject the consumerism that is rampant within the modern church.
As Paul and other apostles rebuked the church in the New Testament repeatedly, we as God’s people must rebel against this “false prophet” of greed that has superseded true Gospel.
We need fewer people to preach at us, and more true pastors willing to teach and guide believers to a closer walk with Him.
I’ve rambled on long enough, I know I am not alone in feeling the sting of the abuse the modern church is capable of, and I’m not foolish enough to think my experience (though varied and all over the US) is an all inclusive situation. I have to believe that there are still churches out there that truly teach the word and try to minister in the best ways they know how, but the most saddening realization is, that’s the exception not the rule… The rule has come to be these corrupt “powerhouse” churches, and it needs to come to an end.
On judgement day if nothing changes, I fear there will be many “but I followed your teaches at mega-church-inc that said if i paid my tithes and came to church I’d be good” and he’s going to say “Depart from me worker of iniquity, I never knew you”… In a perfect world, no one would have to hear those words… But our world is far from perfect, and we can’t sit idly by while evil, or willfully ignorant, men under the guise of “God” lead people to destruction.
I will conclude with food for thought. “They will know us by our love one for another” Are you showing love? Or too busy judging?
Cheers.
Sad. We must look at the Word. Church government was set up by God. Pastor, elders, etc. Pastors are there to bless you and train you “in the work of the ministry”. Lack of respect in the church comes mostly from rebellious, self seeking members who don’t get their way. Lack of respect for leadership – you can use the excuse of “bad Pastors” and choose not to be involved. Convenient. Easier to leave and send the Pastor and email that your are going rather than sitting down to an honest discussion and solve the issue. If not handled correctly, you will roam church to church, never settling and always pointing out the faults. People who murmur and complain stay in the wilderness. You’ve obviously never walked in a Pastor’s shoes. Be glad there are large churches out there. It shows that God is moving on many hearts. Careful about your judgments.
It intrigues me how you can scold me as being too judgmental while your entire response is laced with disdain and judgement.
The more time passes, I didn’t want to respond this way, but I have to more specifically address your condescending response to me.
“Sad.”-nice encouraging place to start, really sets the tone well.
“We must look at the Word. Church government was set up by God. Pastor, elders, etc. Pastors are there to bless you and train you “in the work of the ministry”.”-ok you’re doing good don’t disagree yet,
“Lack of respect in the church comes mostly from rebellious, self seeking members who don’t get their way.” – this where i’ve begun to get annoyed. Your condescending ‘holier-than-thou’ down-your-nose typical baptist attitude. If anyone even dares to question something they must just be rebellious. If there’s an actual problem it must be that person’s fault because it couldn’t possibly be anything else. Respect is NOT innate, it’s EARNED at a high price.
“Lack of respect for leadership – you can use the excuse of “bad Pastors” and choose not to be involved.” – I don’t choose to “excuse” it by bad Pastors. I have had my share of bad pastors, but i’ve also had my share of toxic congregations filled with people just like you, so quick to throw blame to anyone speaking against your perfect little(or massive) church. Someone who loves God, but is crying out for help, from every chance they’ve taken to spend time in the ‘house of the lord’ they have been abused and beaten down by doctrine and this ‘leadership’ within the church. it’s not 1 rebellious person which you may dismiss me as. But my story is not unique… we are many.
” Convenient. Easier to leave and send the Pastor and email that your are going rather than sitting down to an honest discussion and solve the issue.” – My guess is you’re in the ministry and you get a lot of emails. Ok, don’t take your issues out on me. I didn’t take the easy way out, and I don’t appreciate the insinuation. I sat down with my pastors every time and for the most part, they agreed with my grievances but were powerless to do anything to help or were in fact the ones responsible. You don’t know me, you don’t know what i’ve been through, so maybe you should think about that before you jump to your judgments eh?
“If not handled correctly, you will roam church to church, never settling and always pointing out the faults.” – … handled… exactly the problem with the majority of the “elder” church crowd, as i’m assuming you are one of, because they’re always quick to blame the youth for the problems. Youth are not to be handled… it’s the “handling” that’s driven them all away
“People who murmur and complain stay in the wilderness.” – … not even going to bother to repeat that you can think it’s the people saying something that have the problem, maybe you’re just too comfortable to allow things to continue to be wrong…
“You’ve obviously never walked in a Pastor’s shoes.” – The coup de grace as it were of your judgmental and condescending diatribe. No, I haven’t been a pastor. But do you know, until I was about 18(well started to waiver much before that but the final decision to not) I wanted to be a pastor. You know what happened? People like you happened. You beat the will out of me. Self -important pious and judgmental people like you made it seem like an ugly thing to get involved with. Cheers for reinforcing the exact type of person for why I no longer attend an organized church.
“Be glad there are large churches out there. It shows that God is moving on many hearts.” – That seems like confirmation bias to me, also bigger !=(is not equal to) better. More often from my experience, bigger is only better for a few people (whoever is in charge of the $) . Is big ALWAYS evil? of course not. But the majority of churches that grow to these enormous sizes, do so based on the “feel-goods” of christianity. When was the last time you heard a real sermon at a big church and not just some topical bible feel good or “prosperity” preaching ad nauseam.
“Careful about your judgments.” – This was where it all turned around and I realized you must be having me on because no bitter diatribe filled with so much disdain, and condescending judgement as this could possibly conclude with caution to someone else’s judgments.
I’m not saying this to pick a fight, and I’m not saying this to try to make myself sound important, merely trying to hope you recognize for the future, the way you approach people makes a big difference. As I said in my other post, to paraphrase from john “they will know you by your love one to another”. I’ve been inside the walls of churches, and outside… and I don’t see love. I haven’t felt love from “god’s people”… I’ve seen and felt hate, derision, greed, and pious self-righteous judgment… So perhaps consider that? Instead of judging and dismissing me as some bitter dissident, maybe realize I’m one of the many who has gotten a raw deal from the modern church and maybe needs to be shown that there are still those out there capable of God’s love. But I know that the majority aren’t capable, because they’re comfortable in their luke-warm lives.
Christ’ church is part of the plan. But I don’t believe what the modern western “church” is today is Christ’ church. I think you would be more likely to find a group of actual believers, get together in someone’s basement and study to actually grow closer to the Lord. Modern church is an abusivedictatorial money machine that makes me disgusted every time I think about it.
I have lived all around the country (US), for 18 years I was in “churches” of all shapes and sizes, and 99.9% of them were sadly exactly what I see the concerns listed by Scott and the comments.
I too have come to no longer wish or choose to be associated with the term “christian” because modern definition is not the biblical definition. Christians were meant to be Christ followers, or like Christ. But that’s not what it means today. The modern definition of “Christian” is most readily associated with hate. The modern church should be ashamed for allowing themselves to become full of pit-vipers and false prophets. Do we forget Jesus’ anger in the temples? The money collectors? How many sundays wasted listening to “money making lectures” under the guise of “tithing”.
Let us not focus only on pastors though for they are men to, we cannot say that pastors are the downfall of the church. More often I have seen the deacons (or bishops or what have you) be the true problem. Pastors who are held hostage by “doctrine”. I’ve watched as good men are let go because they don’t “play nice” with the leaders, or aren’t pushing hard enough for people to give money.
To all I would only wish blessings to those that won’t just sit back as the church is supplanted from within by men with wicked hearts. But modern church I do not believe can recover. It’s the bible study amongst friends, the small groups, those who gather in fellowship to celebrate the Lord who are truly in the presence of the Lord on earth.
As others have said, God said GO, not “have them come”… western church has become lazy. Programs are great and all, to serve to bring fellowship and community amongst the believers. But those that have all of these “fancy” programs under the guise of outreach… you’re fooling yourselves if you think that’s what God intended. Where did he say “They’ll know you by the size of your churches, how expensive your pastors car is, how many fancy programs you have, big concerts, and by the nice white caps on your teeth while you’re on tv”? no “34″A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35″By THIS all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
There is no love in the modern western church. Doctrine is used to abuse and enslave believers into submission. I weep for the current state… I don’t believe it’s beyond hope, but I believe the “modern church” is well beyond hope. Greed is too far entrenched.
But I don’t think we’re beyond loving each other. The true believers need to stand up, and reject this “prosperity preaching”, reject the hate preaching, reject the greed, reject the consumerism that is rampant within the modern church.
As Paul and other apostles rebuked the church in the New Testament repeatedly, we as God’s people must rebel against this “false prophet” of greed that has superseded true Gospel.
We need fewer people to preach at us, and more true pastors willing to teach and guide believers to a closer walk with Him.
I’ve rambled on long enough, I know I am not alone in feeling the sting of the abuse the modern church is capable of, and I’m not foolish enough to think my experience (though varied and all over the US) is an all inclusive situation. I have to believe that there are still churches out there that truly teach the word and try to minister in the best ways they know how, but the most saddening realization is, that’s the exception not the rule… The rule has come to be these corrupt “powerhouse” churches, and it needs to come to an end.
On judgement day if nothing changes, I fear there will be many “but I followed your teaches at mega-church-inc that said if i paid my tithes and came to church I’d be good” and he’s going to say “Depart from me worker of iniquity, I never knew you”… In a perfect world, no one would have to hear those words… But our world is far from perfect, and we can’t sit idly by while evil, or willfully ignorant, men under the guise of “God” lead people to destruction.
I will conclude with food for thought. “They will know us by our love one for another” Are you showing love? Or too busy judging?
Cheers.
Sad. We must look at the Word. Church government was set up by God. Pastor, elders, etc. Pastors are there to bless you and train you “in the work of the ministry”. Lack of respect in the church comes mostly from rebellious, self seeking members who don’t get their way. Lack of respect for leadership – you can use the excuse of “bad Pastors” and choose not to be involved. Convenient. Easier to leave and send the Pastor and email that your are going rather than sitting down to an honest discussion and solve the issue. If not handled correctly, you will roam church to church, never settling and always pointing out the faults. People who murmur and complain stay in the wilderness. You’ve obviously never walked in a Pastor’s shoes. Be glad there are large churches out there. It shows that God is moving on many hearts. Careful about your judgments.
It intrigues me how you can scold me as being too judgmental while your entire response is laced with disdain and judgement.
The more time passes, I didn’t want to respond this way, but I have to more specifically address your condescending response to me.
“Sad.”-nice encouraging place to start, really sets the tone well.
“We must look at the Word. Church government was set up by God. Pastor, elders, etc. Pastors are there to bless you and train you “in the work of the ministry”.”-ok you’re doing good don’t disagree yet,
“Lack of respect in the church comes mostly from rebellious, self seeking members who don’t get their way.” – this where i’ve begun to get annoyed. Your condescending ‘holier-than-thou’ down-your-nose typical baptist attitude. If anyone even dares to question something they must just be rebellious. If there’s an actual problem it must be that person’s fault because it couldn’t possibly be anything else. Respect is NOT innate, it’s EARNED at a high price.
“Lack of respect for leadership – you can use the excuse of “bad Pastors” and choose not to be involved.” – I don’t choose to “excuse” it by bad Pastors. I have had my share of bad pastors, but i’ve also had my share of toxic congregations filled with people just like you, so quick to throw blame to anyone speaking against your perfect little(or massive) church. Someone who loves God, but is crying out for help, from every chance they’ve taken to spend time in the ‘house of the lord’ they have been abused and beaten down by doctrine and this ‘leadership’ within the church. it’s not 1 rebellious person which you may dismiss me as. But my story is not unique… we are many.
” Convenient. Easier to leave and send the Pastor and email that your are going rather than sitting down to an honest discussion and solve the issue.” – My guess is you’re in the ministry and you get a lot of emails. Ok, don’t take your issues out on me. I didn’t take the easy way out, and I don’t appreciate the insinuation. I sat down with my pastors every time and for the most part, they agreed with my grievances but were powerless to do anything to help or were in fact the ones responsible. You don’t know me, you don’t know what i’ve been through, so maybe you should think about that before you jump to your judgments eh?
“If not handled correctly, you will roam church to church, never settling and always pointing out the faults.” – … handled… exactly the problem with the majority of the “elder” church crowd, as i’m assuming you are one of, because they’re always quick to blame the youth for the problems. Youth are not to be handled… it’s the “handling” that’s driven them all away
“People who murmur and complain stay in the wilderness.” – … not even going to bother to repeat that you can think it’s the people saying something that have the problem, maybe you’re just too comfortable to allow things to continue to be wrong…
“You’ve obviously never walked in a Pastor’s shoes.” – The coup de grace as it were of your judgmental and condescending diatribe. No, I haven’t been a pastor. But do you know, until I was about 18(well started to waiver much before that but the final decision to not) I wanted to be a pastor. You know what happened? People like you happened. You beat the will out of me. Self -important pious and judgmental people like you made it seem like an ugly thing to get involved with. Cheers for reinforcing the exact type of person for why I no longer attend an organized church.
“Be glad there are large churches out there. It shows that God is moving on many hearts.” – That seems like confirmation bias to me, also bigger !=(is not equal to) better. More often from my experience, bigger is only better for a few people (whoever is in charge of the $) . Is big ALWAYS evil? of course not. But the majority of churches that grow to these enormous sizes, do so based on the “feel-goods” of christianity. When was the last time you heard a real sermon at a big church and not just some topical bible feel good or “prosperity” preaching ad nauseam.
“Careful about your judgments.” – This was where it all turned around and I realized you must be having me on because no bitter diatribe filled with so much disdain, and condescending judgement as this could possibly conclude with caution to someone else’s judgments.
I’m not saying this to pick a fight, and I’m not saying this to try to make myself sound important, merely trying to hope you recognize for the future, the way you approach people makes a big difference. As I said in my other post, to paraphrase from john “they will know you by your love one to another”. I’ve been inside the walls of churches, and outside… and I don’t see love. I haven’t felt love from “god’s people”… I’ve seen and felt hate, derision, greed, and pious self-righteous judgment… So perhaps consider that? Instead of judging and dismissing me as some bitter dissident, maybe realize I’m one of the many who has gotten a raw deal from the modern church and maybe needs to be shown that there are still those out there capable of God’s love. But I know that the majority aren’t capable, because they’re comfortable in their luke-warm lives.
I agree. Who can define love in the biblical context? Who is the neighbor in the Samaritan parable? Most Christians sitting in the pews have no idea that love is a verb and that it is the GREATEST, most important commandment. In fact, without it we are “nothing” according to God’s word.
I do not learn anything during sermon time but only in biblical studies and private devotions. Why is one person responsible for feeding the flock each week?
Where are the other men who are expected to have studied the scriptures? They know them less than the women who are faithful week after week year after year to deeply study scripture. There is not 1 mens study group in the churches Ive attended in the last 17 years. Not that its mens fault per se….and thats not my point.
Individual responsibility for studying the Bible is the point, with a strong desire to act on it to display God’s love and glory for His purposes.
The religion God finds blameless is to look after widows and orphans in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. Pray for our enemies and love them. Do everything without grumbling or complaining. It says nothing about the church and programs.
Teach children what love is and how to live it.
Great points Michael.
Thank you Jane, it’s surprisingly encouraging just to know that there is 1 out there that also sees that the focus of a majority of Jesus ministry was teaching about and to love.
I agree that the church as a whole has become lazy, and it’s seen all throughout society not just in church, that personal responsibility is no longer valued as it once was. It’s very disappointing to watch the decline simply because everyone wants to “pass the buck” as it were.
We all need to remember, when we stand before him on judgment day, he’s not going to care how big the building was, or how fancy the programs were, or how expensive your pastors car was or how nice your sound system was. I do believe he will care how we were a reflection of him. As someone else mentioned Matthew 25 and the parable of the sheep and goats. It was how we showed our love towards him through our love towards others.
He won’t be impressed by a clique the size of montana, if you ignored the calling to serve. It’s easy to spend time with like-minded believers, it’s much harder to show love and compassion regardless of a persons situation.
For those of you that still attend an organized church, ask yourself, if someone appearing to be homeless came into your church on sunday morning, would you try to shoo them away, would you try to hide them in the back? It’s easy to say “no of course not we would try to help” but sadly in most circumstances… I personally don’t believe this is the case anymore. And that is the saddest thought of all.
I think all of these concerns can be boiled down into one: looking internally instead of externally. Pastors, and the Western Church as a whole, have come to rely on what they can do, instead of what God can do. WE can build a bigger church, WE can bring more people in, WE can solve their problems, WE can have more impact. They’ve forgotten that if they are children of God, they should bear some resemblance, and some reliance on their Heavenly Father. They’ve become so caught up in reaching out to “bring them in” they no longer walk among those who so desperately need the help the Lord, through His church, can provide. These mega-churches and modern churches with all their programs and all their people are rather self-involved, from my viewpoint. Give me a small church with a loyal few who actually serve others, go out to others, open their hearts and homes and hands to others, and not for the glory or the glamor, but for love of those “least of these” any day. Isn’t that what Jesus was really all about? He was always doing for OTHERS, not for Himself. The disciples only got in trouble with Jesus when focusing too much on themselves and on position and power. (“Who is the greatest among us?”) They did well when they focused their attention on others. (Well, there was that whole martyrdom thing, but that’s another matter altogether…..)
I think all of these concerns can be boiled down into one: looking internally instead of externally. Pastors, and the Western Church as a whole, have come to rely on what they can do, instead of what God can do. WE can build a bigger church, WE can bring more people in, WE can solve their problems, WE can have more impact. They’ve forgotten that if they are children of God, they should bear some resemblance, and some reliance on their Heavenly Father. They’ve become so caught up in reaching out to “bring them in” they no longer walk among those who so desperately need the help the Lord, through His church, can provide. These mega-churches and modern churches with all their programs and all their people are rather self-involved, from my viewpoint. Give me a small church with a loyal few who actually serve others, go out to others, open their hearts and homes and hands to others, and not for the glory or the glamor, but for love of those “least of these” any day. Isn’t that what Jesus was really all about? He was always doing for OTHERS, not for Himself. The disciples only got in trouble with Jesus when focusing too much on themselves and on position and power. (“Who is the greatest among us?”) They did well when they focused their attention on others. (Well, there was that whole martyrdom thing, but that’s another matter altogether…..)
Thank you Scott. Our church recently made several very difficult changes because we felt God leading us in the very direction represented by much of your article. Among those changes was getting rid of our church building and renting a school gymnasium so that we can spend the insane amount of money that we were spending on maintaining a building in the community reaching people for the name of Jesus Christ. Your article is just one more confirmation that has come our way to help us all understand what God is looking for in HIS church.
Thank you Scott. Our church recently made several very difficult changes because we felt God leading us in the very direction represented by much of your article. Among those changes was getting rid of our church building and renting a school gymnasium so that we can spend the insane amount of money that we were spending on maintaining a building in the community reaching people for the name of Jesus Christ. Your article is just one more confirmation that has come our way to help us all understand what God is looking for in HIS church.
I’m concerned that so many people (epsecially young people) disregard the church because it seems old fashioned and stiff. But is that the pastor’s fault? Should things change in order to draw more people in?
speaking only from my experience when I was a younger person, It wasn’t the “old fashioned” or the “stiff” that pushed me, or many others that I witnessed leave, away. It was the attitude, of people like Julie (in response to my previous comment). It was hypocrisy and abuse through “doctrine” that drove us away, that dismissive and arrogant attitude. We got tired of the fake people sitting next to us. It wasn’t even so much the pastor’s, because I have had several whom I felt were truly men of God, it was just the general “holier than thou, if you question our ‘church authority’ then you are just rebellious and need to learn your place”.
Not even to mention the “purity” culture that’s shoved down young people’s throats which only serves to make elders “feel better” and leaves young people completely lost without any kind of a healthy sexual identity(or any clue what a healthy relationship is). My list of grievances with the modern church is long… I know people like Julie will dismiss me as “didn’t get what you wanted” and that’s fine. I’m not here to be judged. I was simply here to share some experiences that may help to continue the discussion of the TRUE church and how we need a change in the modern church.
I’m concerned that so many people (epsecially young people) disregard the church because it seems old fashioned and stiff. But is that the pastor’s fault? Should things change in order to draw more people in?
speaking only from my experience when I was a younger person, It wasn’t the “old fashioned” or the “stiff” that pushed me, or many others that I witnessed leave, away. It was the attitude, of people like Julie (in response to my previous comment). It was hypocrisy and abuse through “doctrine” that drove us away, that dismissive and arrogant attitude. We got tired of the fake people sitting next to us. It wasn’t even so much the pastor’s, because I have had several whom I felt were truly men of God, it was just the general “holier than thou, if you question our ‘church authority’ then you are just rebellious and need to learn your place”.
Not even to mention the “purity” culture that’s shoved down young people’s throats which only serves to make elders “feel better” and leaves young people completely lost without any kind of a healthy sexual identity(or any clue what a healthy relationship is). My list of grievances with the modern church is long… I know people like Julie will dismiss me as “didn’t get what you wanted” and that’s fine. I’m not here to be judged. I was simply here to share some experiences that may help to continue the discussion of the TRUE church and how we need a change in the modern church.
I’m concerned that so many people (epsecially young people) disregard the church because it seems old fashioned and stiff. But is that the pastor’s fault? Should things change in order to draw more people in?
speaking only from my experience when I was a younger person, It wasn’t the “old fashioned” or the “stiff” that pushed me, or many others that I witnessed leave, away. It was the attitude, of people like Julie (in response to my previous comment). It was hypocrisy and abuse through “doctrine” that drove us away, that dismissive and arrogant attitude. We got tired of the fake people sitting next to us. It wasn’t even so much the pastor’s, because I have had several whom I felt were truly men of God, it was just the general “holier than thou, if you question our ‘church authority’ then you are just rebellious and need to learn your place”.
Not even to mention the “purity” culture that’s shoved down young people’s throats which only serves to make elders “feel better” and leaves young people completely lost without any kind of a healthy sexual identity(or any clue what a healthy relationship is). My list of grievances with the modern church is long… I know people like Julie will dismiss me as “didn’t get what you wanted” and that’s fine. I’m not here to be judged. I was simply here to share some experiences that may help to continue the discussion of the TRUE church and how we need a change in the modern church.
As I read these it comes to mind that the types of pastors addressed in each point would likely agree with what you’re saying at face value. Specific examples for each are required to draw the line and clearly define the problem.
As I read these it comes to mind that the types of pastors addressed in each point would likely agree with what you’re saying at face value. Specific examples for each are required to draw the line and clearly define the problem.
Are you suggesting that the author actually names pastors in this segment who he believes fits the descriptions he’s given? If so, that is ridiculous, and extremely un-Christlike in my opinion. Who in the world are you, the author, or I to determine whether or not a pastor does or does not fit a humanly-written description like this? How is it our place to judge a pastor and to say he is (or is not) indicative of such a description? Unless you’re God, I think you’re way off base – if this is indeed your suggestion. One of the problems churches have these days, is believing they “own” the pastor – that he’s their “property” for them to scrutinize, analyze, and criticize as they desire. After all, bless God, they pay his salary, so he belongs to them! I’d be careful, if I were you (or anyone else) to think you somehow have the God-given right to start calling out pastors on some web blog.
I am concerned about the pastors who only teach from the New Testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law, He studied and spend much time expounding on the Old Testament Scriptures, especially the Torah and the prophecies, and after the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles in the upper room, they met to talk about which rules would still apply. Jesus paid our price, but that does not free us to live as we desire, but to strive to live as God would have us. This foundation is taught in the OT. Love and forgiveness are granted after repentance, but to those who choose not to repent, even in Revelation Jesus tells John their lampstand will be put out. Not all lifestyles are going to be accepted, and churches today who are afraid of hurting people’s feelings are allowing sinful decay and moral rot to creep into their churches. I have needed discipline, but I have repented and have been welcomed back, just as it should be. For those who look on me and wonder why I am back, it is because God is merciful, and that mercy can reach even me. The only people God has set under me to correct are my children and their children, on down. I will stand before God one day and answer for how I attempted to raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, but I also need to let them know they can never fall into a pit where God’s love is not deeper still. I’ve been told that while my children were small, I should confine my service in church to children’s ministries. For those I helped bring to Jesus, I also hold a spiritual obligation to make sure they are growing. Surprisingly, and unbeknownst to some, I have kept my eye on each child I lead to the Lord, and have continued to pray for them. As my own have grown, and some chosen to go their own way, I still feel as children’s ministries is best, because if I couldn’t reach my own teens or young adults, I have no business trying to tell others how to run their own lives. However, from ALL the multitude of mistakes I’ve made over the past 48years as a Christian, I can listen, understand, love, forgive, and guide. Now, in an area of few thriving churches and two defiant teens who don’t want your typical three point sermon (and who can blame them), nor do they want to be harped at about tithing (that’s between you and God, tyvm), and many pastors skipping alter calls, acknowledgement of visitors, or requests for Baptism, and even fewer offer discipleship classes, or private Bible studies for new believers most teens don’t want to go.
I’ve rambled more than enough. I’m just tired of not having learned anything new at all in church in over ten years, and I don’t have a degree in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic. Theology, or Divinity. I just read a lot.
Your Sister, Lord Willing, In Christ Jesus,
Michele
I am concerned about the pastors who only teach from the New Testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law, He studied and spend much time expounding on the Old Testament Scriptures, especially the Torah and the prophecies, and after the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles in the upper room, they met to talk about which rules would still apply. Jesus paid our price, but that does not free us to live as we desire, but to strive to live as God would have us. This foundation is taught in the OT. Love and forgiveness are granted after repentance, but to those who choose not to repent, even in Revelation Jesus tells John their lampstand will be put out. Not all lifestyles are going to be accepted, and churches today who are afraid of hurting people’s feelings are allowing sinful decay and moral rot to creep into their churches. I have needed discipline, but I have repented and have been welcomed back, just as it should be. For those who look on me and wonder why I am back, it is because God is merciful, and that mercy can reach even me. The only people God has set under me to correct are my children and their children, on down. I will stand before God one day and answer for how I attempted to raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, but I also need to let them know they can never fall into a pit where God’s love is not deeper still. I’ve been told that while my children were small, I should confine my service in church to children’s ministries. For those I helped bring to Jesus, I also hold a spiritual obligation to make sure they are growing. Surprisingly, and unbeknownst to some, I have kept my eye on each child I lead to the Lord, and have continued to pray for them. As my own have grown, and some chosen to go their own way, I still feel as children’s ministries is best, because if I couldn’t reach my own teens or young adults, I have no business trying to tell others how to run their own lives. However, from ALL the multitude of mistakes I’ve made over the past 48years as a Christian, I can listen, understand, love, forgive, and guide. Now, in an area of few thriving churches and two defiant teens who don’t want your typical three point sermon (and who can blame them), nor do they want to be harped at about tithing (that’s between you and God, tyvm), and many pastors skipping alter calls, acknowledgement of visitors, or requests for Baptism, and even fewer offer discipleship classes, or private Bible studies for new believers most teens don’t want to go.
I’ve rambled more than enough. I’m just tired of not having learned anything new at all in church in over ten years, and I don’t have a degree in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic. Theology, or Divinity. I just read a lot.
Your Sister, Lord Willing, In Christ Jesus,
Michele
I am concerned about the pastors who only teach from the New Testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law, He studied and spend much time expounding on the Old Testament Scriptures, especially the Torah and the prophecies, and after the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles in the upper room, they met to talk about which rules would still apply. Jesus paid our price, but that does not free us to live as we desire, but to strive to live as God would have us. This foundation is taught in the OT. Love and forgiveness are granted after repentance, but to those who choose not to repent, even in Revelation Jesus tells John their lampstand will be put out. Not all lifestyles are going to be accepted, and churches today who are afraid of hurting people’s feelings are allowing sinful decay and moral rot to creep into their churches. I have needed discipline, but I have repented and have been welcomed back, just as it should be. For those who look on me and wonder why I am back, it is because God is merciful, and that mercy can reach even me. The only people God has set under me to correct are my children and their children, on down. I will stand before God one day and answer for how I attempted to raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, but I also need to let them know they can never fall into a pit where God’s love is not deeper still. I’ve been told that while my children were small, I should confine my service in church to children’s ministries. For those I helped bring to Jesus, I also hold a spiritual obligation to make sure they are growing. Surprisingly, and unbeknownst to some, I have kept my eye on each child I lead to the Lord, and have continued to pray for them. As my own have grown, and some chosen to go their own way, I still feel as children’s ministries is best, because if I couldn’t reach my own teens or young adults, I have no business trying to tell others how to run their own lives. However, from ALL the multitude of mistakes I’ve made over the past 48years as a Christian, I can listen, understand, love, forgive, and guide. Now, in an area of few thriving churches and two defiant teens who don’t want your typical three point sermon (and who can blame them), nor do they want to be harped at about tithing (that’s between you and God, tyvm), and many pastors skipping alter calls, acknowledgement of visitors, or requests for Baptism, and even fewer offer discipleship classes, or private Bible studies for new believers most teens don’t want to go.
I’ve rambled more than enough. I’m just tired of not having learned anything new at all in church in over ten years, and I don’t have a degree in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic. Theology, or Divinity. I just read a lot.
Your Sister, Lord Willing, In Christ Jesus,
Michele
Very weary of theCHURCH OF FEEL GOOD, you know those churches that on Easter say Jesus died for our “mistakes,” and forget to include our very real sins! (Too afraid they’ll alienate people if they point out that we all make conscious decisions to sin at times.) I’m very concerned about those pastors who do not realize that the active blessing of Israel is a commandment of sorts, as our US safety depends on us not turning our backs on the Jews here and there.
Very weary of theCHURCH OF FEEL GOOD, you know those churches that on Easter say Jesus died for our “mistakes,” and forget to include our very real sins! (Too afraid they’ll alienate people if they point out that we all make conscious decisions to sin at times.) I’m very concerned about those pastors who do not realize that the active blessing of Israel is a commandment of sorts, as our US safety depends on us not turning our backs on the Jews here and there.
Connie me too, and it seems to be what people are wanting and all others are negative..Good post and I agree wholeheartedly.
Dear Scott, After reading almost all the above comments I noticed a common thread. Yes, you were talking specifically about pastors, but have you considered that the overemphasis in the American church on the traditional role of the pastor and elders may be a contributing factor to “church” decline. Is it possible that God is allowing and even orchestrating the tearing down of a structure that is more cultural than Biblical in order to establish His church according to His design. I have pastored as well as ministered in many different kinds of churches as an itinerant minister, so I have seen all kinds from the awesome, presence of God filled, hungry, seeking, loving groups to the I can’t wait to wipe the dust off my feet and go types. God has given me His love for them all, especially the pastors. Each congregation/denomination has its own personality that reflects a small part of the Father’s character as well as its own unique and specific Kingdom assignment. Sadly, I have observed that many lack Kingdom vision or a sense of purpose beyond having and maintaining a “church” as an organization rather than a living organism. The very idea of church as we know it seems to dictate the vision of the pastor and the people rather than the other way around. I see the American church as a cart driving the horse! The pastors either get try to push the cart, grasping at whatever works… or whatever they’ve been told works. In the end they get caught in the machinery and find it difficult to be led by the Spirit of God amidst all the voices. I believe that may come from an unbalanced understanding of church leadership roles. In Ephesians 4: 11-16 we read that Jesus gave 5 offices to lead the church into maturity, equip believers for ministry and bring to a place of working together in love. Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers roles are all vital and equally important. Each brings its unique and different perspective and ability to impart what is necessary for the church to thrive. The church is starving because for the most part the pastor is expected to be all these and he is neither called nor capable of fulfilling all five roles. I say, let the church be the church according to the pattern Jesus gave us. It is something to work towards. I am blessed to finally be a part of a fellowship where the pastor is committed to recognizing and allowing the apostle, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors to develop and grow into their respective callings and use their gifts to grow the Body of Christ.
Concerning your response, Terry, I am clapping with you and for you! And I’m so encouraged that in pockets all around, the church is emerging as the church–where the Word is proclaimed, where the body operates in a culture of honor whose Head is Christ, and where the members exemplify a first centry passion for His Presence.
Dear Scott, After reading almost all the above comments I noticed a common thread. Yes, you were talking specifically about pastors, but have you considered that the overemphasis in the American church on the traditional role of the pastor and elders may be a contributing factor to “church” decline. Is it possible that God is allowing and even orchestrating the tearing down of a structure that is more cultural than Biblical in order to establish His church according to His design. I have pastored as well as ministered in many different kinds of churches as an itinerant minister, so I have seen all kinds from the awesome, presence of God filled, hungry, seeking, loving groups to the I can’t wait to wipe the dust off my feet and go types. God has given me His love for them all, especially the pastors. Each congregation/denomination has its own personality that reflects a small part of the Father’s character as well as its own unique and specific Kingdom assignment. Sadly, I have observed that many lack Kingdom vision or a sense of purpose beyond having and maintaining a “church” as an organization rather than a living organism. The very idea of church as we know it seems to dictate the vision of the pastor and the people rather than the other way around. I see the American church as a cart driving the horse! The pastors either get try to push the cart, grasping at whatever works… or whatever they’ve been told works. In the end they get caught in the machinery and find it difficult to be led by the Spirit of God amidst all the voices. I believe that may come from an unbalanced understanding of church leadership roles. In Ephesians 4: 11-16 we read that Jesus gave 5 offices to lead the church into maturity, equip believers for ministry and bring to a place of working together in love. Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers roles are all vital and equally important. Each brings its unique and different perspective and ability to impart what is necessary for the church to thrive. The church is starving because for the most part the pastor is expected to be all these and he is neither called nor capable of fulfilling all five roles. I say, let the church be the church according to the pattern Jesus gave us. It is something to work towards. I am blessed to finally be a part of a fellowship where the pastor is committed to recognizing and allowing the apostle, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors to develop and grow into their respective callings and use their gifts to grow the Body of Christ.
Concerning your response, Terry, I am clapping with you and for you! And I’m so encouraged that in pockets all around, the church is emerging as the church–where the Word is proclaimed, where the body operates in a culture of honor whose Head is Christ, and where the members exemplify a first centry passion for His Presence.
my concern is people still think they go to church….and don’t realize…they are the church, just be the church, it will change everything for you and also you will then end up in a house church, simple church, organic church. I work with organic church in Chiang Mai Thailand and what a difference from the old disorganized church building model.
my concern is people still think they go to church….and don’t realize…they are the church, just be the church, it will change everything for you and also you will then end up in a house church, simple church, organic church. I work with organic church in Chiang Mai Thailand and what a difference from the old disorganized church building model.
I appreciated the article and find much truth and “food for thought” therein.
As a retired military officer, I can attest that many “join up” for a variety of reasons. Perhaps it is a paycheck, stable employment, an early paid retirement, or lifetime medical benefits that attract. However, once on board, the enlistee soon discovers there is a price to be paid for all these benefits; for some … the ultimate price. Only the ones who have “settled the question” and ultimately serve for love of country, the immeasurable treasure of liberty, and who believe in their leadership will fight effectively.
Similarly in the cause of Christ, the benefits are immense but there too … tremendous cost. As new Christians, we must address the question that Jesus posed to Peter … “do you love me”? Until we resolve the question of Whom and what we love (with our “whole heart”) a split loyalty will result (“double-mindedness” according to James).
In my estimation, most of the problems addressed in the article stem from a lack of emphasis on full consecration on the part of the believer. Like the young recruit, we can come to Christ for a variety of reasons and in a variety of ways. However, Christ quickly calls us to serve Him with our whole heart … a price many are reluctant to pay. In response to our reluctance, Christ does not change His call (as some might hope) and unless we change our position … a “standoff” occurs.
Regrettably, there are a great number of members of the modern church in “standoff” mode. They are heroes neither to God nor their fellow man. They refrain from full participation in both the Kingdom of God and the “kingdom of this world”. A sad and unhealthy state. Their insistence on identifying themselves as “Christians” while not wholly embracing the “law of love” alienates onlookers of all persuasions.
The modern church needs to do a better job of moving converts through these “muddy waters” and on to full commitment. It is not until we have settled the question FULLY that we are equipped for service and will serve as attractive ambassadors of Christ. I stand as a witness.
The saddest statistics I read are those that show how little difference there really is between the behaviors of American Christians and those who claim no allegiance to the Lord. It has not been so in former times, nor in other locales today.
Chuck Magsig
I appreciated the article and find much truth and “food for thought” therein.
As a retired military officer, I can attest that many “join up” for a variety of reasons. Perhaps it is a paycheck, stable employment, an early paid retirement, or lifetime medical benefits that attract. However, once on board, the enlistee soon discovers there is a price to be paid for all these benefits; for some … the ultimate price. Only the ones who have “settled the question” and ultimately serve for love of country, the immeasurable treasure of liberty, and who believe in their leadership will fight effectively.
Similarly in the cause of Christ, the benefits are immense but there too … tremendous cost. As new Christians, we must address the question that Jesus posed to Peter … “do you love me”? Until we resolve the question of Whom and what we love (with our “whole heart”) a split loyalty will result (“double-mindedness” according to James).
In my estimation, most of the problems addressed in the article stem from a lack of emphasis on full consecration on the part of the believer. Like the young recruit, we can come to Christ for a variety of reasons and in a variety of ways. However, Christ quickly calls us to serve Him with our whole heart … a price many are reluctant to pay. In response to our reluctance, Christ does not change His call (as some might hope) and unless we change our position … a “standoff” occurs.
Regrettably, there are a great number of members of the modern church in “standoff” mode. They are heroes neither to God nor their fellow man. They refrain from full participation in both the Kingdom of God and the “kingdom of this world”. A sad and unhealthy state. Their insistence on identifying themselves as “Christians” while not wholly embracing the “law of love” alienates onlookers of all persuasions.
The modern church needs to do a better job of moving converts through these “muddy waters” and on to full commitment. It is not until we have settled the question FULLY that we are equipped for service and will serve as attractive ambassadors of Christ. I stand as a witness.
The saddest statistics I read are those that show how little difference there really is between the behaviors of American Christians and those who claim no allegiance to the Lord. It has not been so in former times, nor in other locales today.
Chuck Magsig
I am concerned that the Church looks and sounds more like modern culture than it does of the life of our Master-Jesus Christ of Nazareth-the spotless Lamb of God who came and dwelt among us as the God-Man and one on this day GOOD FRIDAY that died so we can live(and that is only by US dieing). Meeting HIM in His most defining act, that of crucifixion. See Galations 5:24- PTL
I am concerned that the Church looks and sounds more like modern culture than it does of the life of our Master-Jesus Christ of Nazareth-the spotless Lamb of God who came and dwelt among us as the God-Man and one on this day GOOD FRIDAY that died so we can live(and that is only by US dieing). Meeting HIM in His most defining act, that of crucifixion. See Galations 5:24- PTL
I am concerned with a pastor who writes a book then has a book signing at Barnes and Noble.
I am concerned with a pastor who writes a book then has a book signing at Barnes and Noble.
I am concerned with a pastor who writes a book then has a book signing at Barnes and Noble.
Scott
Much ageement when You write about pastors…
“In other words, I’m concerned about pastors
and the role they play in the church’s decline.
Me too…
“I’m concerned about the pastor who” takes a “Title/Position”
pastor/leader/reverend that is NOT found in the Bible…
For one of His Disciples…
Kinda hard for today’s pastor/leader/reverend – to be…
“1. …making disciples of Jesus.”
When, in the Bible NOT one of His Disciples had that “Title.”
Hasn’t anyone ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
NOT one, of His Disciples…
Called themself – pastor? Or leader? Or reverend?
Called another Disciple – pastor/leader/reverend?
Had the “Title/Position” – pastor/leader/reverend?
Was Hired, or Fired, as a – pastor/leader/reverend?
Are Today’s – Shepherds? Leaders? Reverends?
Taking the Name of the Lord Thy God?
And Taking that Name in Vain?
Ex 20:7
Thou shalt not take the NAME of the LORD thy God in VAIN;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Seems, the only “ONE” in the Bible…
Who is called, or referred to as, – Shepherd/Leader/Reverend – IS…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Scott
Much ageement when You write about pastors…
“In other words, I’m concerned about pastors
and the role they play in the church’s decline.
Me too…
“I’m concerned about the pastor who” takes a “Title/Position”
pastor/leader/reverend that is NOT found in the Bible…
For one of His Disciples…
Kinda hard for today’s pastor/leader/reverend – to be…
“1. …making disciples of Jesus.”
When, in the Bible NOT one of His Disciples had that “Title.”
Hasn’t anyone ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
NOT one, of His Disciples…
Called themself – pastor? Or leader? Or reverend?
Called another Disciple – pastor/leader/reverend?
Had the “Title/Position” – pastor/leader/reverend?
Was Hired, or Fired, as a – pastor/leader/reverend?
Are Today’s – Shepherds? Leaders? Reverends?
Taking the Name of the Lord Thy God?
And Taking that Name in Vain?
Ex 20:7
Thou shalt not take the NAME of the LORD thy God in VAIN;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Seems, the only “ONE” in the Bible…
Who is called, or referred to as, – Shepherd/Leader/Reverend – IS…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Scott
In my experience, with having been ordained, in leadership…
In my experience, with the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend…
“Titles” become “Idols” ……….. “Idols” of the heart – Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters ……. A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV
“Leaders” become “Deceivers” Yup that was me. But it was just a few. 🙁
“Church Leaders” become “Deception Breeders.” – But I meant well. 🙁
Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV
And Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders.”
For you have “ONE” Leader – The Christ. Mat 23:10-12 NASB
And ALL His Disciples called themselves “Servants.” Go figure… 😉
And, NOT one of His Disciples called themselves “Leader.” Seems these guys hangin with Jesus thought He was actually serious about His Disciples NOT being called leader. 😉
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
If NOT now? – When?
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Scott
In my experience, with having been ordained, in leadership…
In my experience, with the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend…
“Titles” become “Idols” ……….. “Idols” of the heart – Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters ……. A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV
“Leaders” become “Deceivers” Yup that was me. But it was just a few. 🙁
“Church Leaders” become “Deception Breeders.” – But I meant well. 🙁
Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV
And Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders.”
For you have “ONE” Leader – The Christ. Mat 23:10-12 NASB
And ALL His Disciples called themselves “Servants.” Go figure… 😉
And, NOT one of His Disciples called themselves “Leader.” Seems these guys hangin with Jesus thought He was actually serious about His Disciples NOT being called leader. 😉
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
If NOT now? – When?
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
I’m concerned that we spend way too much time talking about all of these things; critiquing others and “the church”, when we should be acting out the love of God to the culture around us. I am wrestling with this concept myself; looking at how I need to make personal changes. When I read the parable of the sheep and the goats I see what God considers important. All else is irrelevant to God. I am coming to the conclusion that much of what we do in our American churches on Sunday morning is preach to the choir. Sometimes I wonder if God views what we do on Sunday mornings as an immense waste of resources that is not having any impact on the culture around us. Maybe church services need to be people who love God giving service to the hurting people in our communities rather than having ritualistic services that make us feel good about ourselves for another week.
I think there’s a lot of hurting people. Some people are hurting so badly because to put it to the point: Most don’t seem to care about those who may be a little lessor than they. I mean they don’t fit the rest of the Church if you know what I mean. I think their the clicks of the Church. What I’m trying to say is we need to help those hurting. Many have quit the Church altogether because of this. There is no easy answer. We all have our excuses and reasons. Like if a man or woman divorce. Oh no look out. Woman are far more ridiculed than men. It’s hard being a divorce woman in the church. They are looked over more so than most. Why? Because it is a sin to divorced. But, God says: if a man beat a woman or commits adultery then they have the right. But, there are so many who haven’t a clue how some suffer. We all are not born into two parent homes. I can go on and on. But, I’m going to stop here.
I’m concerned that we spend way too much time talking about all of these things; critiquing others and “the church”, when we should be acting out the love of God to the culture around us. I am wrestling with this concept myself; looking at how I need to make personal changes. When I read the parable of the sheep and the goats I see what God considers important. All else is irrelevant to God. I am coming to the conclusion that much of what we do in our American churches on Sunday morning is preach to the choir. Sometimes I wonder if God views what we do on Sunday mornings as an immense waste of resources that is not having any impact on the culture around us. Maybe church services need to be people who love God giving service to the hurting people in our communities rather than having ritualistic services that make us feel good about ourselves for another week.
I find myself feeling the same way. church is beginning to feel like a social event .
I think there’s a lot of hurting people. Some people are hurting so badly because to put it to the point: Most don’t seem to care about those who may be a little lessor than they. I mean they don’t fit the rest of the Church if you know what I mean. I think their the clicks of the Church. What I’m trying to say is we need to help those hurting. Many have quit the Church altogether because of this. There is no easy answer. We all have our excuses and reasons. Like if a man or woman divorce. Oh no look out. Woman are far more ridiculed than men. It’s hard being a divorce woman in the church. They are looked over more so than most. Why? Because it is a sin to divorced. But, God says: if a man beat a woman or commits adultery then they have the right. But, there are so many who haven’t a clue how some suffer. We all are not born into two parent homes. I can go on and on. But, I’m going to stop here.
After being in pastoral ministry for 31 years, I am leaving next month so no one will need to be “concerned” about me.
After being in pastoral ministry for 31 years, I am leaving next month so no one will need to be “concerned” about me.
Scott, you are spot on in your assessments. Our former beloved pastor was driven out, yet he was THE most Spirit-filled, anointed pastor I’ve ever sat under in my 59 years. Satan doesn’t like it when people’s lives are being changed, and people who call themselves Christians, but are called out for sin don’t like being exposed either. Our church split, and then split again. For the past 2 1/2 yrs. we have visited church after church trying to find a pastor who truly preaches the Word and is Spirit-led and anointed, because once you’ve tasted of the Power and Passion of the Holy Spirit, nothing else compares! Haven’t found one yet, but this is what we DID find…
We visited several different denominations, but always ones that held true to the basic tenets of the Christian faith…we consider ourselves Bapticostal. In all instances (and shamefully we live in the capital of the Bible belt), the leadership’s attitudes, sermons, dress and leading had become woefully “casual”. And our deduction was that, when the leadership treats the things of the Lord casually, the congregation follows suit and no longer do they have respect for nor do they honor the things of the Lord. For example, a large assembly of God church had in the bulletin that the Lord’s supper was upfront on the altar steps for 15 min. prior to the worship service. If you wanted to partake, it was self-serve. They also invited people who were a candidate for baptism to come down. About 30 people came and a baptismal service commenced on either side of the stage. No deference was given to the baptisms – they were just dunked and the guy said “next”, all the while a rock concert circus was going on in the middle of the stage. The following Sunday, they planned for a skateboard half-pike form to be on stage for an exhibition. The next Sunday they were going to have a live zoo on stage, and so it went…this is nothing but entertainment of the masses instead of worship of the Savior and preaching that causes repentance!
Another large non-denominational church we visited right around Christmas last year had a rock band on stage. The wall timer ticked down to 10 min. before worship, and then an instrumental version of Carlos Santana’s, “You Put a Spell on me Baby”, was performed for the 10 min. prior to worship! There were only two other songs performed – one I’d never heard of and one by Peter, Paul and Mary – no congregational singing – just entertainment. The pastor got up in his jeans with his shirt hanging out; the congregation sat there in their casual clothes drinking their lattes.
No one is offering an invitation anymore. My husband likened it to going to a car lot to buy a car, and the salesman giving you a great “pitch” on why to buy this car, but just as you are about to take the bait and buy it, the salesman walks away.
My belief has been for many years that the lack of preaching and teaching on the person and power and purpose of the Holy Spirit is the main reason for our decline. Our churches have quenched Him corporately and personally. When there is no power evidenced in our lives or our churches, then people don’t want what we have. This is another big reason why we lose our young people as soon as they leave home – they’ve not seen any evidence of the Spirit’s power and passion living in their parents or making a difference in other Christian’s lives, so its easy to walk away from something from which they saw no “fruit”.
The apostate church is in full swing, fulfilling “end times” Scripture. Lord, I am SO sorry that we, to whom much has been given, have squandered the greatest gift ever! Please forgive us.
Scott, you are spot on in your assessments. Our former beloved pastor was driven out, yet he was THE most Spirit-filled, anointed pastor I’ve ever sat under in my 59 years. Satan doesn’t like it when people’s lives are being changed, and people who call themselves Christians, but are called out for sin don’t like being exposed either. Our church split, and then split again. For the past 2 1/2 yrs. we have visited church after church trying to find a pastor who truly preaches the Word and is Spirit-led and anointed, because once you’ve tasted of the Power and Passion of the Holy Spirit, nothing else compares! Haven’t found one yet, but this is what we DID find…
We visited several different denominations, but always ones that held true to the basic tenets of the Christian faith…we consider ourselves Bapticostal. In all instances (and shamefully we live in the capital of the Bible belt), the leadership’s attitudes, sermons, dress and leading had become woefully “casual”. And our deduction was that, when the leadership treats the things of the Lord casually, the congregation follows suit and no longer do they have respect for nor do they honor the things of the Lord. For example, a large assembly of God church had in the bulletin that the Lord’s supper was upfront on the altar steps for 15 min. prior to the worship service. If you wanted to partake, it was self-serve. They also invited people who were a candidate for baptism to come down. About 30 people came and a baptismal service commenced on either side of the stage. No deference was given to the baptisms – they were just dunked and the guy said “next”, all the while a rock concert circus was going on in the middle of the stage. The following Sunday, they planned for a skateboard half-pike form to be on stage for an exhibition. The next Sunday they were going to have a live zoo on stage, and so it went…this is nothing but entertainment of the masses instead of worship of the Savior and preaching that causes repentance!
Another large non-denominational church we visited right around Christmas last year had a rock band on stage. The wall timer ticked down to 10 min. before worship, and then an instrumental version of Carlos Santana’s, “You Put a Spell on me Baby”, was performed for the 10 min. prior to worship! There were only two other songs performed – one I’d never heard of and one by Peter, Paul and Mary – no congregational singing – just entertainment. The pastor got up in his jeans with his shirt hanging out; the congregation sat there in their casual clothes drinking their lattes.
No one is offering an invitation anymore. My husband likened it to going to a car lot to buy a car, and the salesman giving you a great “pitch” on why to buy this car, but just as you are about to take the bait and buy it, the salesman walks away.
My belief has been for many years that the lack of preaching and teaching on the person and power and purpose of the Holy Spirit is the main reason for our decline. Our churches have quenched Him corporately and personally. When there is no power evidenced in our lives or our churches, then people don’t want what we have. This is another big reason why we lose our young people as soon as they leave home – they’ve not seen any evidence of the Spirit’s power and passion living in their parents or making a difference in other Christian’s lives, so its easy to walk away from something from which they saw no “fruit”.
The apostate church is in full swing, fulfilling “end times” Scripture. Lord, I am SO sorry that we, to whom much has been given, have squandered the greatest gift ever! Please forgive us.
Scott, you are spot on in your assessments. Our former beloved pastor was driven out, yet he was THE most Spirit-filled, anointed pastor I’ve ever sat under in my 59 years. Satan doesn’t like it when people’s lives are being changed, and people who call themselves Christians, but are called out for sin don’t like being exposed either. Our church split, and then split again. For the past 2 1/2 yrs. we have visited church after church trying to find a pastor who truly preaches the Word and is Spirit-led and anointed, because once you’ve tasted of the Power and Passion of the Holy Spirit, nothing else compares! Haven’t found one yet, but this is what we DID find…
We visited several different denominations, but always ones that held true to the basic tenets of the Christian faith…we consider ourselves Bapticostal. In all instances (and shamefully we live in the capital of the Bible belt), the leadership’s attitudes, sermons, dress and leading had become woefully “casual”. And our deduction was that, when the leadership treats the things of the Lord casually, the congregation follows suit and no longer do they have respect for nor do they honor the things of the Lord. For example, a large assembly of God church had in the bulletin that the Lord’s supper was upfront on the altar steps for 15 min. prior to the worship service. If you wanted to partake, it was self-serve. They also invited people who were a candidate for baptism to come down. About 30 people came and a baptismal service commenced on either side of the stage. No deference was given to the baptisms – they were just dunked and the guy said “next”, all the while a rock concert circus was going on in the middle of the stage. The following Sunday, they planned for a skateboard half-pike form to be on stage for an exhibition. The next Sunday they were going to have a live zoo on stage, and so it went…this is nothing but entertainment of the masses instead of worship of the Savior and preaching that causes repentance!
Another large non-denominational church we visited right around Christmas last year had a rock band on stage. The wall timer ticked down to 10 min. before worship, and then an instrumental version of Carlos Santana’s, “You Put a Spell on me Baby”, was performed for the 10 min. prior to worship! There were only two other songs performed – one I’d never heard of and one by Peter, Paul and Mary – no congregational singing – just entertainment. The pastor got up in his jeans with his shirt hanging out; the congregation sat there in their casual clothes drinking their lattes.
No one is offering an invitation anymore. My husband likened it to going to a car lot to buy a car, and the salesman giving you a great “pitch” on why to buy this car, but just as you are about to take the bait and buy it, the salesman walks away.
My belief has been for many years that the lack of preaching and teaching on the person and power and purpose of the Holy Spirit is the main reason for our decline. Our churches have quenched Him corporately and personally. When there is no power evidenced in our lives or our churches, then people don’t want what we have. This is another big reason why we lose our young people as soon as they leave home – they’ve not seen any evidence of the Spirit’s power and passion living in their parents or making a difference in other Christian’s lives, so its easy to walk away from something from which they saw no “fruit”.
The apostate church is in full swing, fulfilling “end times” Scripture. Lord, I am SO sorry that we, to whom much has been given, have squandered the greatest gift ever! Please forgive us.
Can you all please send an encouraging word/email/letter/card to your pastor? I know that we can make a mess of things, and at times we are just so full of ourselves that we can barely make it through the door in our offices…but truth be told many of us are exhausted, and carrying a constant guilt that we are not doing enough…reading enough…praying enough…serving…and loving enough. I recently asked a friend how often he had his priest over for coffee, he asked “why would I ever do that?”…and while we continued our discussion about the protestant church (and his long list as to why God is not “in” it) I kept reflecting on his statement “Why would I ever do that?”
Why would I ever treat my priest/pastor/reverend/or whatever you call him/her like a friend? The loneliest place in the church is the pastorate…and I agree with Scott that there are many issues in the contemporary church…but pastors are leaving the ministry like crazy…and maybe that doesn’t seem like a problem…but it really concerns me. Because those “pastors” have real names, and families, and histories, and calling, and passions…just like the rest of us…yet somehow – while they strive to reach the lost, disciple the saved, and send the equipped…they become a little less than human. Most have no idea what is taking place “behind the scenes” and I don’t mean just in the board meetings on Tuesday nights…I mean in the pastors home/heart/soul. Everyone needs a little compassion/grace/love/encouragement/sincere attention/authentic friendship…even our pastors.
Yes, this. Thank you.
This is the most mature and Jesus-like response. In life, but also on this thread. Thank you for speaking life, Chris.
Can you all please send an encouraging word/email/letter/card to your pastor? I know that we can make a mess of things, and at times we are just so full of ourselves that we can barely make it through the door in our offices…but truth be told many of us are exhausted, and carrying a constant guilt that we are not doing enough…reading enough…praying enough…serving…and loving enough. I recently asked a friend how often he had his priest over for coffee, he asked “why would I ever do that?”…and while we continued our discussion about the protestant church (and his long list as to why God is not “in” it) I kept reflecting on his statement “Why would I ever do that?”
Why would I ever treat my priest/pastor/reverend/or whatever you call him/her like a friend? The loneliest place in the church is the pastorate…and I agree with Scott that there are many issues in the contemporary church…but pastors are leaving the ministry like crazy…and maybe that doesn’t seem like a problem…but it really concerns me. Because those “pastors” have real names, and families, and histories, and calling, and passions…just like the rest of us…yet somehow – while they strive to reach the lost, disciple the saved, and send the equipped…they become a little less than human. Most have no idea what is taking place “behind the scenes” and I don’t mean just in the board meetings on Tuesday nights…I mean in the pastors home/heart/soul. Everyone needs a little compassion/grace/love/encouragement/sincere attention/authentic friendship…even our pastors.
Yes, this. Thank you.
This is the most mature and Jesus-like response. In life, but also on this thread. Thank you for speaking life, Chris.
well said too!
Conversely, I’m equally as concerned for the pastor who spends all of his time in his office, and none with his people. I’m concerned with the pastor who has abandoned the invitation at the end of a message, and encourages people to call the office and set an appointment. There should be a balance.
Conversely, I’m equally as concerned for the pastor who spends all of his time in his office, and none with his people. I’m concerned with the pastor who has abandoned the invitation at the end of a message, and encourages people to call the office and set an appointment. There should be a balance.
I’m concerned about the Pastor who is praying, devoting himself to the Word, and preaching the real Gospel of Grace – because Satan wants these men dead, and their families destroyed. While these other men you have mentioned may live comfortably with their self-help religion, it is the real Gospel preachers we should be concerned about.
Haven’t you read the end of the story? Our God is greater, our God is stronger, our God is higher than any other. 🙂 Satan will not win, and God in control. There is no need to be concerned. Instead, encourage and “spur on” those real gospel preachers.
I am in so much agreement with the post made by Jesse. Preaching the real gospel, the gospel of grace that is given to us as a gift, in and through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The gospel of grace and the pastor’s that are preaching it and not on the law, that’s where are prayers and concerns need to be. God will take care of the rest. Its only when all of us (the church) believe, receive and accept God’s wonderful gift of grace, (Jesus) will God work in and through us.(the church) God CANNOT be in the presence of the church’s unholiness, He doesn’t even see it. He only sees Jesus, His only begotten Son and the work on the cross. When we only see Jesus and the finished work on the cross, that’s when we meet as One.
I’m concerned about the Pastor who is praying, devoting himself to the Word, and preaching the real Gospel of Grace – because Satan wants these men dead, and their families destroyed. While these other men you have mentioned may live comfortably with their self-help religion, it is the real Gospel preachers we should be concerned about.
Haven’t you read the end of the story? Our God is greater, our God is stronger, our God is higher than any other. 🙂 Satan will not win, and God in control. There is no need to be concerned. Instead, encourage and “spur on” those real gospel preachers.
I am in so much agreement with the post made by Jesse. Preaching the real gospel, the gospel of grace that is given to us as a gift, in and through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The gospel of grace and the pastor’s that are preaching it and not on the law, that’s where are prayers and concerns need to be. God will take care of the rest. Its only when all of us (the church) believe, receive and accept God’s wonderful gift of grace, (Jesus) will God work in and through us.(the church) God CANNOT be in the presence of the church’s unholiness, He doesn’t even see it. He only sees Jesus, His only begotten Son and the work on the cross. When we only see Jesus and the finished work on the cross, that’s when we meet as One.
I am in agreement with the post written by Jesse, our real concern and prayers should be with the pastors and churches that are preaching and living out the true gospel message of Grace. When we (the church) can begin to focus on the wonderful gift that God the Father has given us, and NOT on the law, is when we will begin to see God work in His church. It is His church after all.—————— God only sees His only begotten Son and the finished work of the cross. When we (the church) believes, receives and accepts the gift of Grace (Jesus) and the finished work on the cross, will be when we will come together as one and see God’s power.
I agree with Joye. If only we could all focus on Jesus and not each other, we will become more like Him and less like… well…., US. It is found in the finished work of Christ, we all must seek Him and quit seeking the approval of Man.
I’m concerned about the Pastor who is praying, devoting himself to the Word, and preaching the real Gospel of Grace – because Satan wants these men dead, and their families destroyed. While these other men you have mentioned may live comfortably with their self-help religion, it is the real Gospel preachers we should be concerned about.
Haven’t you read the end of the story? Our God is greater, our God is stronger, our God is higher than any other. 🙂 Satan will not win, and God in control. There is no need to be concerned. Instead, encourage and “spur on” those real gospel preachers.
I am in so much agreement with the post made by Jesse. Preaching the real gospel, the gospel of grace that is given to us as a gift, in and through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The gospel of grace and the pastor’s that are preaching it and not on the law, that’s where are prayers and concerns need to be. God will take care of the rest. Its only when all of us (the church) believe, receive and accept God’s wonderful gift of grace, (Jesus) will God work in and through us.(the church) God CANNOT be in the presence of the church’s unholiness, He doesn’t even see it. He only sees Jesus, His only begotten Son and the work on the cross. When we only see Jesus and the finished work on the cross, that’s when we meet as One.
I am in agreement with the post written by Jesse, our real concern and prayers should be with the pastors and churches that are preaching and living out the true gospel message of Grace. When we (the church) can begin to focus on the wonderful gift that God the Father has given us, and NOT on the law, is when we will begin to see God work in His church. It is His church after all.—————— God only sees His only begotten Son and the finished work of the cross. When we (the church) believes, receives and accepts the gift of Grace (Jesus) and the finished work on the cross, will be when we will come together as one and see God’s power.
I agree with Joye. If only we could all focus on Jesus and not each other, we will become more like Him and less like… well…., US. It is found in the finished work of Christ, we all must seek Him and quit seeking the approval of Man.
Since when is the church the pastor…. as far as I know the church is all those called into God’s kingdom.. Therefore I am concerned for the rest of the people coming in and sitting down and listening and leaving worship for I.e. and doing nothing else. Step up to the plate people this is your church… not the pastors. Pastor who have served a variety of congregations in different parts of this world.
Since when is the church the pastor…. as far as I know the church is all those called into God’s kingdom.. Therefore I am concerned for the rest of the people coming in and sitting down and listening and leaving worship for I.e. and doing nothing else. Step up to the plate people this is your church… not the pastors. Pastor who have served a variety of congregations in different parts of this world.
Since when is the church the pastor…. as far as I know the church is all those called into God’s kingdom.. Therefore I am concerned for the rest of the people coming in and sitting down and listening and leaving worship for I.e. and doing nothing else. Step up to the plate people this is your church… not the pastors. Pastor who have served a variety of congregations in different parts of this world.
Hi. I was both pleased, saddened and hopeful reading the article and all the comments.
I’m writing from South Africa, where sadly the Church is not faring any better than our USA counterparts…
I am both woman and Pastor (go figure) and if we read the Word in the books of John to the Churches we see WOMEN being the home church leaders…
Accountability is to me the main issue here. Huge difference between being accountable and having a controlling spirit.
False teachings must be addressed and checked. Programs which dishonor the Name of Jesus must be exposed – as must sin.
We should function as a body and be humble enough to accept correction.
In the Lord’s eyes there is only ONE body – not fragmented parts fighting for power.
For the most part I was saddened by the bitterness in some comments.
I am however hopeful that these conversations opened a positive door to find solutions and bring Jesus led changes. The Lord knows how much the World needs it. Can we focus together on solutions??
May God bless all of you.
I agree.
Hi. I was both pleased, saddened and hopeful reading the article and all the comments.
I’m writing from South Africa, where sadly the Church is not faring any better than our USA counterparts…
I am both woman and Pastor (go figure) and if we read the Word in the books of John to the Churches we see WOMEN being the home church leaders…
Accountability is to me the main issue here. Huge difference between being accountable and having a controlling spirit.
False teachings must be addressed and checked. Programs which dishonor the Name of Jesus must be exposed – as must sin.
We should function as a body and be humble enough to accept correction.
In the Lord’s eyes there is only ONE body – not fragmented parts fighting for power.
For the most part I was saddened by the bitterness in some comments.
I am however hopeful that these conversations opened a positive door to find solutions and bring Jesus led changes. The Lord knows how much the World needs it. Can we focus together on solutions??
May God bless all of you.
I agree.
Hi. I was both pleased, saddened and hopeful reading the article and all the comments.
I’m writing from South Africa, where sadly the Church is not faring any better than our USA counterparts…
I am both woman and Pastor (go figure) and if we read the Word in the books of John to the Churches we see WOMEN being the home church leaders…
Accountability is to me the main issue here. Huge difference between being accountable and having a controlling spirit.
False teachings must be addressed and checked. Programs which dishonor the Name of Jesus must be exposed – as must sin.
We should function as a body and be humble enough to accept correction.
In the Lord’s eyes there is only ONE body – not fragmented parts fighting for power.
For the most part I was saddened by the bitterness in some comments.
I am however hopeful that these conversations opened a positive door to find solutions and bring Jesus led changes. The Lord knows how much the World needs it. Can we focus together on solutions??
May God bless all of you.
I agree.
Nice post. Now let’s see 10 pastors you’re excited about.
Nice post. Now let’s see 10 pastors you’re excited about.
Nice post. Now let’s see 10 pastors you’re excited about.
Thank you for the most HONEST input regarding pastors of today! You sir, are SPOT ON—I have often questioned the church and began my skepticism during my teenage years after witnessing such hypocrisy. I lost interest after the big televangelists such as Oral Roberts, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, et al. I am no longer affiliated with ANY church of ANY denomination; however, I still believe in the Trinity and follow the teachings of Jesus just as good as some delusional and dedicated church goer. I am angry that these Bible thumpers teach and practice hatred on ANY level; while passing judgment and denying the less fortunate any assistance if they are hungry, need medical treatment or shelter!!! I am thoroughly disgusted how pastors and his “minions” cater to the rich and play on the fears of their flocks! This needed to be said!!!
Thank you for the most HONEST input regarding pastors of today! You sir, are SPOT ON—I have often questioned the church and began my skepticism during my teenage years after witnessing such hypocrisy. I lost interest after the big televangelists such as Oral Roberts, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, et al. I am no longer affiliated with ANY church of ANY denomination; however, I still believe in the Trinity and follow the teachings of Jesus just as good as some delusional and dedicated church goer. I am angry that these Bible thumpers teach and practice hatred on ANY level; while passing judgment and denying the less fortunate any assistance if they are hungry, need medical treatment or shelter!!! I am thoroughly disgusted how pastors and his “minions” cater to the rich and play on the fears of their flocks! This needed to be said!!!
Thank you for the most HONEST input regarding pastors of today! You sir, are SPOT ON—I have often questioned the church and began my skepticism during my teenage years after witnessing such hypocrisy. I lost interest after the big televangelists such as Oral Roberts, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, et al. I am no longer affiliated with ANY church of ANY denomination; however, I still believe in the Trinity and follow the teachings of Jesus just as good as some delusional and dedicated church goer. I am angry that these Bible thumpers teach and practice hatred on ANY level; while passing judgment and denying the less fortunate any assistance if they are hungry, need medical treatment or shelter!!! I am thoroughly disgusted how pastors and his “minions” cater to the rich and play on the fears of their flocks! This needed to be said!!!
Amen. Absolutely no shock. Oh that we would see the preaching of Christ return, unashamed, in this crooked age. Blessings, Jeremy
http://www.Time2Stand.com
Amen. Absolutely no shock. Oh that we would see the preaching of Christ return, unashamed, in this crooked age. Blessings, Jeremy
http://www.Time2Stand.com
Amen. Absolutely no shock. Oh that we would see the preaching of Christ return, unashamed, in this crooked age. Blessings, Jeremy
http://www.Time2Stand.com
All I can do is pray that pastors and the church as a whole will return back to the scriptures and really search to see what GOD is and has been saying to the church. Praise GOD for truth! Amen!
All I can do is pray that pastors and the church as a whole will return back to the scriptures and really search to see what GOD is and has been saying to the church. Praise GOD for truth! Amen!
Where is the research behind these erroneous, judgmental, generalized caricatures of pastors? Articles like this do not help. Instead they paint unfair, inaccurate, unsubstantiated pictures of complicated human beings.
Submit to a legitimate research methodology rather than sensational personal observation. Use statistics, qualitative interviews, find historical studies, etc. It will serve the world better if you seek truth using intelligent, sophisticated, honest academic methodilogies rather than personal opinion.
I see several references, so I disagree. Maybe this woke something up in YOU?
Perhaps it did wake something up in some that comment, but shouldn’t iron sharpen iron? Or are any of us above reproach?
Oh. You would rather establish a program filled with self-important people to determine the effectiveness of a pastor. Actually, this list is a list of Biblical CONCERNS, not judgments. I find it re-assuring that there are still people out there who have a heart for God that wish to serve and glorify Him. I have been to too many churches (both mega-churches and otherwise) that are long on social issues and short on Bible teaching. When a pastor has the right priorities and has a right relationship with God, God seems to take care of the rest.
Well said, Tom.
Back in the sixties the Church of England funded a research into finding out why some church grew and some failed. The results were, “A church grew or failed due to the person behind the pulpit.” It’s still the same today
Where is the research behind these erroneous, judgmental, generalized caricatures of pastors? Articles like this do not help. Instead they paint unfair, inaccurate, unsubstantiated pictures of complicated human beings.
Submit to a legitimate research methodology rather than sensational personal observation. Use statistics, qualitative interviews, find historical studies, etc. It will serve the world better if you seek truth using intelligent, sophisticated, honest academic methodilogies rather than personal opinion.
I see several references, so I disagree. Maybe this woke something up in YOU?
Perhaps it did wake something up in some that comment, but shouldn’t iron sharpen iron? Or are any of us above reproach?
Oh. You would rather establish a program filled with self-important people to determine the effectiveness of a pastor. Actually, this list is a list of Biblical CONCERNS, not judgments. I find it re-assuring that there are still people out there who have a heart for God that wish to serve and glorify Him. I have been to too many churches (both mega-churches and otherwise) that are long on social issues and short on Bible teaching. When a pastor has the right priorities and has a right relationship with God, God seems to take care of the rest.
Very aptly expressed Tom………. And kudos to your effort Scott. May Jesus fortify your hearts by his Holy Spirit.
Back in the sixties the Church of England funded a research into finding out why some church grew and some failed. The results were, “A church grew or failed due to the person behind the pulpit.” It’s still the same today
Where is the research behind these erroneous, judgmental, generalized caricatures of pastors? Articles like this do not help. Instead they paint unfair, inaccurate, unsubstantiated pictures of complicated human beings.
Submit to a legitimate research methodology rather than sensational personal observation. Use statistics, qualitative interviews, find historical studies, etc. It will serve the world better if you seek truth using intelligent, sophisticated, honest academic methodilogies rather than personal opinion.
I see several references, so I disagree. Maybe this woke something up in YOU?
Perhaps it did wake something up in some that comment, but shouldn’t iron sharpen iron? Or are any of us above reproach?
Oh. You would rather establish a program filled with self-important people to determine the effectiveness of a pastor. Actually, this list is a list of Biblical CONCERNS, not judgments. I find it re-assuring that there are still people out there who have a heart for God that wish to serve and glorify Him. I have been to too many churches (both mega-churches and otherwise) that are long on social issues and short on Bible teaching. When a pastor has the right priorities and has a right relationship with God, God seems to take care of the rest.
Well said, Tom.
Very aptly expressed Tom………. And kudos to your effort Scott. May Jesus fortify your hearts by his Holy Spirit.
Back in the sixties the Church of England funded a research into finding out why some church grew and some failed. The results were, “A church grew or failed due to the person behind the pulpit.” It’s still the same today
I’m ok with your descriptions. 10 things we shouldn’t be. Pastoring like any pursuit can have wonderlust for those that see it as a way to build a brand/name/whatever. As a tired pastor here’s what I know. God is sovereign, Christ is alive, Holy Spirit dwells with us, and I am saved. When you try and make disciples: the enemy, the worlds ways, and usually at least half of the believers fight against you. Be strong in Christ’s strength and fear not, our reward and hopes are eternal. Eternal!
I’m ok with your descriptions. 10 things we shouldn’t be. Pastoring like any pursuit can have wonderlust for those that see it as a way to build a brand/name/whatever. As a tired pastor here’s what I know. God is sovereign, Christ is alive, Holy Spirit dwells with us, and I am saved. When you try and make disciples: the enemy, the worlds ways, and usually at least half of the believers fight against you. Be strong in Christ’s strength and fear not, our reward and hopes are eternal. Eternal!
Very true! I’m concerned about the pastor who uses humiliation and shame as a tool of correction all in the name of “love”. There are some pastors who take their power too far and use the pulpit for hate speech and public embarrassment. This abuse is then shrouded in mangled love language which allows for people to begin to equate love with verbal abuse.
Very true! I’m concerned about the pastor who uses humiliation and shame as a tool of correction all in the name of “love”. There are some pastors who take their power too far and use the pulpit for hate speech and public embarrassment. This abuse is then shrouded in mangled love language which allows for people to begin to equate love with verbal abuse.
Pastor types 2 and 8 spoke to me. I love pastors that ‘feed My sheep.’ That doesn’t mean that I hate those who are otherwise engaged. I see evidence of the great falling away as it is going full steam ahead and picking up steam all the time. How is it that people can believe the false teachers out there? There appears to me to be two main reasons. One, there is (generally speaking) an appalling degree of biblical illiteracy in Christendom. And two, there exists among many an appetite for such ideas as guaranteed physical healing and riches to come my way if only I will “sow my best seed now.” I love and appreciate faithful men of God who preach His word without fear or favor.
Pastor types 2 and 8 spoke to me. I love pastors that ‘feed My sheep.’ That doesn’t mean that I hate those who are otherwise engaged. I see evidence of the great falling away as it is going full steam ahead and picking up steam all the time. How is it that people can believe the false teachers out there? There appears to me to be two main reasons. One, there is (generally speaking) an appalling degree of biblical illiteracy in Christendom. And two, there exists among many an appetite for such ideas as guaranteed physical healing and riches to come my way if only I will “sow my best seed now.” I love and appreciate faithful men of God who preach His word without fear or favor.
Pastor types 2 and 8 spoke to me. I love pastors that ‘feed My sheep.’ That doesn’t mean that I hate those who are otherwise engaged. I see evidence of the great falling away as it is going full steam ahead and picking up steam all the time. How is it that people can believe the false teachers out there? There appears to me to be two main reasons. One, there is (generally speaking) an appalling degree of biblical illiteracy in Christendom. And two, there exists among many an appetite for such ideas as guaranteed physical healing and riches to come my way if only I will “sow my best seed now.” I love and appreciate faithful men of God who preach His word without fear or favor.
May I mention #11: The pastor who doesn’t see the value in teaching the evidence that supports the Christian faith. How are atheists like Dawkins and their followers to know the evidence for the truth of the Bible if the people in the pews aren’t aware of it?
May I mention #11: The pastor who doesn’t see the value in teaching the evidence that supports the Christian faith. How are atheists like Dawkins and their followers to know the evidence for the truth of the Bible if the people in the pews aren’t aware of it?
May I mention #11: The pastor who doesn’t see the value in teaching the evidence that supports the Christian faith. How are atheists like Dawkins and their followers to know the evidence for the truth of the Bible if the people in the pews aren’t aware of it?
when you continue to feed the flock and don’t worry about closing your church great things can happen. when you forget about out reach and bringing people to Christ you are burying your selve. Do we not believe ha t all things are possible through Christ Then why not trust in Him In my opinion priest in some denominations are over paid. they seem to loose their sense of calling and start acting as if they have an ordinary job with ordinary hours. Some priests want total control and frown on involving others in ministries Lay ministry is needed to grow and bring others to Christ..
when you continue to feed the flock and don’t worry about closing your church great things can happen. when you forget about out reach and bringing people to Christ you are burying your selve. Do we not believe ha t all things are possible through Christ Then why not trust in Him In my opinion priest in some denominations are over paid. they seem to loose their sense of calling and start acting as if they have an ordinary job with ordinary hours. Some priests want total control and frown on involving others in ministries Lay ministry is needed to grow and bring others to Christ..
when you continue to feed the flock and don’t worry about closing your church great things can happen. when you forget about out reach and bringing people to Christ you are burying your selve. Do we not believe ha t all things are possible through Christ Then why not trust in Him In my opinion priest in some denominations are over paid. they seem to loose their sense of calling and start acting as if they have an ordinary job with ordinary hours. Some priests want total control and frown on involving others in ministries Lay ministry is needed to grow and bring others to Christ..
I am tired, very tired of articles like this where pastors are once again the target for criticisms. With only one in every twenty who begin a life in ministry actually making it to retirement wouldn’t it be a better to spend our time finding good in all those living in this impossible lifestyle? I do not know the writer of this little piece of crap and don’t care to. We have a scandal on our hands when it comes our beloved God -called men and women and it’s not about this sniffling little post. I have had enough of this and my wife and I have big plans to minister and love these people like Jesus;;;;;;;;You tell me where is a pastor to turn when trouble comes……few places across the land including churches. I remain in the battle in my 43rd year with more to come……most if not all the great servants of God I know are fed up with these kind of articles……Could some of you pious so called little helpers just shut up for a change and go minister to . our own broken team members. You are not that great yourself you Pharisees and hypocrites.
This is in moderation if you guys are ready for some real truth. It is time to go after the unregenerate in your congregations and that may be some of you. Jesus had to deal with the Pharisees throughout his time of ministry and that was not in moderation.
Wow…so name calling is Christian and loving… and diminishing someone’s character because you disagree with their opinions about pastor’s (not even you personally) makes you less a Pharisee and hypocrite? Yet you’re tired of these articles…smh! I’m tired of leaders who’s ego’s are so fragile that they can’t stomach any modicum of truth. If this article didn’t fit you or your “great servants of God” friends then why bother to comment at all. Your venomous remarks concern me! because if that’s your response to a post from someone you don’t even know then how do you handle your “broken” team members when they disagree with you! Perhaps you’re the reason they’re broken in the first place! All voices have a right to be heard and respected whether we agree or not… I guess your 43 years wasn’t long enough for you to get that…
What a sad thing for a pastor to stoop to this level of name calling and criticism because his feelings were hurt. You are one of the reasons that article needed to be written.
I am tired, very tired of articles like this where pastors are once again the target for criticisms. With only one in every twenty who begin a life in ministry actually making it to retirement wouldn’t it be a better to spend our time finding good in all those living in this impossible lifestyle? I do not know the writer of this little piece of crap and don’t care to. We have a scandal on our hands when it comes our beloved God -called men and women and it’s not about this sniffling little post. I have had enough of this and my wife and I have big plans to minister and love these people like Jesus;;;;;;;;You tell me where is a pastor to turn when trouble comes……few places across the land including churches. I remain in the battle in my 43rd year with more to come……most if not all the great servants of God I know are fed up with these kind of articles……Could some of you pious so called little helpers just shut up for a change and go minister to . our own broken team members. You are not that great yourself you Pharisees and hypocrites.
This is in moderation if you guys are ready for some real truth. It is time to go after the unregenerate in your congregations and that may be some of you. Jesus had to deal with the Pharisees throughout his time of ministry and that was not in moderation.
Wow…so name calling is Christian and loving… and diminishing someone’s character because you disagree with their opinions about pastor’s (not even you personally) makes you less a Pharisee and hypocrite? Yet you’re tired of these articles…smh! I’m tired of leaders who’s ego’s are so fragile that they can’t stomach any modicum of truth. If this article didn’t fit you or your “great servants of God” friends then why bother to comment at all. Your venomous remarks concern me! because if that’s your response to a post from someone you don’t even know then how do you handle your “broken” team members when they disagree with you! Perhaps you’re the reason they’re broken in the first place! All voices have a right to be heard and respected whether we agree or not… I guess your 43 years wasn’t long enough for you to get that…
Why u r so angry at this. Is it because u r exposed? I am tired of people like u, for telling people like Scott to shut up. If you call this man a hypocrite, then all the prophets were. For the condemned the established institutionalized looting and idolatrous acts of their times.
What a sad thing for a pastor to stoop to this level of name calling and criticism because his feelings were hurt. You are one of the reasons that article needed to be written.
I am concerned about you Scott. You need to find a little moderation in your comments
I am concerned about you Scott. You need to find a little moderation in your comments
I agree with all those points but would add that I am concerned about pastor #11, the young man who criticizes his elders and judges them and their ministry instead of acting in humility and learning from those sages of the ministry. None of us has it all sown up in one brief list of to do’s. That’s legalism anyway. All of us need more grace to know that it is Jesus who build his church. We just need to be faithful when there are many or few who love the Lord.
I agree with all those points but would add that I am concerned about pastor #11, the young man who criticizes his elders and judges them and their ministry instead of acting in humility and learning from those sages of the ministry. None of us has it all sown up in one brief list of to do’s. That’s legalism anyway. All of us need more grace to know that it is Jesus who build his church. We just need to be faithful when there are many or few who love the Lord.
This article is painful to read. My husband and I have been in fulltime ministry for over 30 years and have been on staff in very large churches and very small. This article just proves once again that there is such a lack of encouragement among pastors. It is not a surprise that so many are leaving the ministry and throwing in the towel along with so much depression in their lives along with the pastors wife.
I wonder how much prayer really went into this article. It was total negativity. Don’t pastors have enough of that already to deal with?
Give yourself a few more years pastor and then look back over these words you wrote. You may very well have a different perspective. I feel sorry for you.
Please tell Pastor E.T. that one of his former students from Calvary Temple sends his love and prayers. Blessings to you and your family!
Sister if you can’t see the tree’s through the forest, then I am sorry for you! An article that was very well written and a tool to only help pastors who are truly called of God to become better pastors!
This article is painful to read. My husband and I have been in fulltime ministry for over 30 years and have been on staff in very large churches and very small. This article just proves once again that there is such a lack of encouragement among pastors. It is not a surprise that so many are leaving the ministry and throwing in the towel along with so much depression in their lives along with the pastors wife.
I wonder how much prayer really went into this article. It was total negativity. Don’t pastors have enough of that already to deal with?
Give yourself a few more years pastor and then look back over these words you wrote. You may very well have a different perspective. I feel sorry for you.
Sister if you can’t see the tree’s through the forest, then I am sorry for you! An article that was very well written and a tool to only help pastors who are truly called of God to become better pastors!
This article is painful to read. My husband and I have been in fulltime ministry for over 30 years and have been on staff in very large churches and very small. This article just proves once again that there is such a lack of encouragement among pastors. It is not a surprise that so many are leaving the ministry and throwing in the towel along with so much depression in their lives along with the pastors wife.
I wonder how much prayer really went into this article. It was total negativity. Don’t pastors have enough of that already to deal with?
Give yourself a few more years pastor and then look back over these words you wrote. You may very well have a different perspective. I feel sorry for you.
Please tell Pastor E.T. that one of his former students from Calvary Temple sends his love and prayers. Blessings to you and your family!
Sister if you can’t see the tree’s through the forest, then I am sorry for you! An article that was very well written and a tool to only help pastors who are truly called of God to become better pastors!
Imo, this was well written and insightful article. ..kudos to the author for daring to challenge folk to reflect upon what they see in the mirror rather than merely continue gazing through the window.
Also, it’s almost shocking to see just how many scoffs and scathing remarks have come in…as if what has been said isn’t true? However, how shocking is it really that, often, the ones spewing vitriol quite possibly are, in fact, the very pastors/wives who have been convicted by the image here that simply reflects who they really are?!? More bothered by their diminished image than they are eager to CORRECTLY guide the flock they supposedly tend to.
How sad indeed.
Two mites
Hymn
Imo, this was well written and insightful article. ..kudos to the author for daring to challenge folk to reflect upon what they see in the mirror rather than merely continue gazing through the window.
Also, it’s almost shocking to see just how many scoffs and scathing remarks have come in…as if what has been said isn’t true? However, how shocking is it really that, often, the ones spewing vitriol quite possibly are, in fact, the very pastors/wives who have been convicted by the image here that simply reflects who they really are?!? More bothered by their diminished image than they are eager to CORRECTLY guide the flock they supposedly tend to.
How sad indeed.
Two mites
Hymn
James 3:1 – Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
For those of you concerned with the negativity of this article, I’m very sorry you’re offended. However, I challenge you rather to argue the truth and relevance of the points made here. No one is above wise reproach, even from those younger or less experienced than they (1 Timothy 4:12). Our leaders and teachers need to be held accountable just as we do, and even as their authority should be respected, their teachings must be challenged, as they are sown into more minds and hearts than ours.
I also challenge you to examine your own heart. Rather than being offended by these concerns and sharing that with the world, question why it is that you’re offended at all, and remember to respond with love. There is wisdom here, if you will look for it.
And to all: Encourage your pastors. PLEASE, encourage them, and give them grace in the small things, because they walk a much more perilous road!
James 3:1 – Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
For those of you concerned with the negativity of this article, I’m very sorry you’re offended. However, I challenge you rather to argue the truth and relevance of the points made here. No one is above wise reproach, even from those younger or less experienced than they (1 Timothy 4:12). Our leaders and teachers need to be held accountable just as we do, and even as their authority should be respected, their teachings must be challenged, as they are sown into more minds and hearts than ours.
I also challenge you to examine your own heart. Rather than being offended by these concerns and sharing that with the world, question why it is that you’re offended at all, and remember to respond with love. There is wisdom here, if you will look for it.
And to all: Encourage your pastors. PLEASE, encourage them, and give them grace in the small things, because they walk a much more perilous road!
AMEN
I think the article attacked every possible direction of ministry. Too much in any direction can be bad. Give the pastor a break
I think the article attacked every possible direction of ministry. Too much in any direction can be bad. Give the pastor a break
As a lay pastor for 18 years in the U.S. I find, in most situations, a discomfort and insecurity in the role of a full time pastor working along side a lay pastor. It could be described as a ‘sacred competition’ that is far removed from the church of Acts. Be it programs, self-promotion or deep sincerely to traffic the gospel to all people , God is limited by our lack of willingness to work side by side for one purpose and One reason.
Amen, however, with all of the concerns, we as members must do our part; above all, pray for the leaders.
And we done all to stand, pray.
As a lay pastor for 18 years in the U.S. I find, in most situations, a discomfort and insecurity in the role of a full time pastor working along side a lay pastor. It could be described as a ‘sacred competition’ that is far removed from the church of Acts. Be it programs, self-promotion or deep sincerely to traffic the gospel to all people , God is limited by our lack of willingness to work side by side for one purpose and One reason.
Amen, however, with all of the concerns, we as members must do our part; above all, pray for the leaders.
And we done all to stand, pray.
I am blessed reading this piece of Christian article. These days, i used to wonder the way or manner Brother Paul of the Bible would react to our Pastors’ activities these days.
Praying that God would raised up writers like the Apostle who would condemned pastors’ excesses because they are kidding with the Church these days!
You have written well and i pray the Holy Spirit keep guiding you in writing more to the Glory of God.
However, i want us to be praying for them. The enemy of the church would first go after the leader, i think his agenda is to derail our pastors and keep the Church hostage. They need our prayers to function effectively in the realm of glossolalia charismata!!
I am blessed reading this piece of Christian article. These days, i used to wonder the way or manner Brother Paul of the Bible would react to our Pastors’ activities these days.
Praying that God would raised up writers like the Apostle who would condemned pastors’ excesses because they are kidding with the Church these days!
You have written well and i pray the Holy Spirit keep guiding you in writing more to the Glory of God.
However, i want us to be praying for them. The enemy of the church would first go after the leader, i think his agenda is to derail our pastors and keep the Church hostage. They need our prayers to function effectively in the realm of glossolalia charismata!!
I am blessed reading this piece of Christian article. These days, i used to wonder the way or manner Brother Paul of the Bible would react to our Pastors’ activities these days.
Praying that God would raised up writers like the Apostle who would condemned pastors’ excesses because they are kidding with the Church these days!
You have written well and i pray the Holy Spirit keep guiding you in writing more to the Glory of God.
However, i want us to be praying for them. The enemy of the church would first go after the leader, i think his agenda is to derail our pastors and keep the Church hostage. They need our prayers to function effectively in the realm of glossolalia charismata!!
I’m concerned about the pastors and church critics and commentators that work in sound-bites like this. Sounds very ‘all-knowing’.
Helen I am concerned about the source as well as the basis for you saying the one who is sounding an alarm and keeping the supposed pastors on their toes.if you think or feel they feel all knowing.how then do we sound alarms about anomalies of pastors and stewards in GOD’S vineyard who are doing the wring things..Pls Helen let me ask are you or are you related to a pastor?
I’m concerned about the pastors and church critics and commentators that work in sound-bites like this. Sounds very ‘all-knowing’.
If we listen to people like you the world will go astray. I believe you also see nothing in pastors buying private jets. it is unfortunate but I believe you are one of those who worship pastors instead of making them better persons and do what they are supposed to do instead of becoming worldly people whose lost for material things can’t be controlled. Who knows maybe you are one of those pastors and also want to spend big so you are upset that you are reading the truth
I’m concerned about the pastors and church critics and commentators that work in sound-bites like this. Sounds very ‘all-knowing’.
If we listen to people like you the world will go astray. I believe you also see nothing in pastors buying private jets. it is unfortunate but I believe you are one of those who worship pastors instead of making them better persons and do what they are supposed to do instead of becoming worldly people whose lost for material things can’t be controlled. Who knows maybe you are one of those pastors and also want to spend big so you are upset that you are reading the truth
Helen I am concerned about the source as well as the basis for you saying the one who is sounding an alarm and keeping the supposed pastors on their toes.if you think or feel they feel all knowing.how then do we sound alarms about anomalies of pastors and stewards in GOD’S vineyard who are doing the wring things..Pls Helen let me ask are you or are you related to a pastor?
I agree with a lot of those observations regarding pastors. That’s the place to look, is the church. It’s not the culture fault, it’s not scientists or atheists. If there is a problem with the growth of faith in Jesus, the place to look for the problem is in the church.
Let me just add a few to your list:
11. Pastors who fail to contextualize the message to the current issues (no compromise theological but high adaptability in presentation is biblical)
12. Pastors who are stuck on pre-suppositional approaches to evangelism, throwing bible verses at people instead of answering their questions in love.
13. Pastors who are stuck in the 1980s with their methods are hurting the presentation by clinging to past cultural ways of presenting it (American traditionalism is what I call this)
14. Pastors who dumb down the message deeply concern me.
15. Pastors who refuse to engage in apologetics concern me as well.
16. Pastors so hard nosed they rebuke everyone every week concern me.
17. Pastors who cling to their denominations and scorn other denominations with minor theological differences concern me.
18. Pastors always trying to make a point instead of a difference, blasting their fellows and creating divides in the church of Christ deeply concern me.
19. Statist Pastors concern me, who are deeply political and push wars and worship the US government.
20. Pastors with a pride problem destroy the church, period.
Exactly. Thank you.
I agree with a lot of those observations regarding pastors. That’s the place to look, is the church. It’s not the culture fault, it’s not scientists or atheists. If there is a problem with the growth of faith in Jesus, the place to look for the problem is in the church.
Let me just add a few to your list:
11. Pastors who fail to contextualize the message to the current issues (no compromise theological but high adaptability in presentation is biblical)
12. Pastors who are stuck on pre-suppositional approaches to evangelism, throwing bible verses at people instead of answering their questions in love.
13. Pastors who are stuck in the 1980s with their methods are hurting the presentation by clinging to past cultural ways of presenting it (American traditionalism is what I call this)
14. Pastors who dumb down the message deeply concern me.
15. Pastors who refuse to engage in apologetics concern me as well.
16. Pastors so hard nosed they rebuke everyone every week concern me.
17. Pastors who cling to their denominations and scorn other denominations with minor theological differences concern me.
18. Pastors always trying to make a point instead of a difference, blasting their fellows and creating divides in the church of Christ deeply concern me.
19. Statist Pastors concern me, who are deeply political and push wars and worship the US government.
20. Pastors with a pride problem destroy the church, period.
Exactly. Thank you.
Do people still go to churches to seek the true Jesus? I know I left them many many years ago. I have a daily minute by minute connection to Yahshua / Jesus my savior who gives me all I need. I recently had a dream where I was making a movie about all the churches that were closing. I then awoke and The Holy Spirit told me that people who have the Holy Spirit will meet with a few others of which some don’t and that will be the new way. It’s been my way for almost 30 years even though it took me until 2013 to actually get a visitation from ministering angels who cheered and celebrated Me… back into the fold.. They kept me up from 8pm til 2am last may 1st. Since that time satan has not had the hold on me like he previously had and my faith has increased immeasurably. Yes I do go to a online kinda church with one Robert lyte who holds teachings on youtube and facebook. There are a few who go but then again these are the end times and the churches / buildings have gone the way of the dinosaur.. Well the true churches.. the true church today is a body of believers who hold fast to the truth and stay filled with their oil so the thief who comes in the night is surprised we are ready. … Yes there are a few good small churches still teaching the truth. I went to one last year in ickesburg pa. may God bless you all and may you come to the knowledge of the truth.
Do people still go to churches to seek the true Jesus? I know I left them many many years ago. I have a daily minute by minute connection to Yahshua / Jesus my savior who gives me all I need. I recently had a dream where I was making a movie about all the churches that were closing. I then awoke and The Holy Spirit told me that people who have the Holy Spirit will meet with a few others of which some don’t and that will be the new way. It’s been my way for almost 30 years even though it took me until 2013 to actually get a visitation from ministering angels who cheered and celebrated Me… back into the fold.. They kept me up from 8pm til 2am last may 1st. Since that time satan has not had the hold on me like he previously had and my faith has increased immeasurably. Yes I do go to a online kinda church with one Robert lyte who holds teachings on youtube and facebook. There are a few who go but then again these are the end times and the churches / buildings have gone the way of the dinosaur.. Well the true churches.. the true church today is a body of believers who hold fast to the truth and stay filled with their oil so the thief who comes in the night is surprised we are ready. … Yes there are a few good small churches still teaching the truth. I went to one last year in ickesburg pa. may God bless you all and may you come to the knowledge of the truth.
#11 – Pastors who think they have the corner on the market. Is Christ the head of the church? Is decline a mistake? Providence? Sovereignty? Is style a sin?
#12 – Pastors who believe their ministry is the only focus of the church. Acts 2:42-47. Is a program wrong?
#11 – Pastors who think they have the corner on the market. Is Christ the head of the church? Is decline a mistake? Providence? Sovereignty? Is style a sin?
#12 – Pastors who believe their ministry is the only focus of the church. Acts 2:42-47. Is a program wrong?
#11 – Pastors who think they have the corner on the market. Is Christ the head of the church? Is decline a mistake? Providence? Sovereignty? Is style a sin?
#12 – Pastors who believe their ministry is the only focus of the church. Acts 2:42-47. Is a program wrong?
If the Catholic laity pulled its own weight, it would not matter so much how finely-tuned our priests were.
If the Catholic laity pulled its own weight, it would not matter so much how finely-tuned our priests were.
Amen! Into Thy Word has been studying this for over 30 years, here is a more indepth analysis…. http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/web/articleid/32768/columnid/3881/default.asp
Amen! Into Thy Word has been studying this for over 30 years, here is a more indepth analysis…. http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/web/articleid/32768/columnid/3881/default.asp
I am surprised by all the “why don’t you try and encourage pastors rather than tear them down” comments on this thread.
I found these assessments to be accurate and encouraging. Pastors have a unique calling before God to equip the saint for the work of the ministry through the faithful preaching of God’s Word and the shepherding of His flock. The descriptions the author gives are a drift away from that central focus…
I remember Alistair Begg having a similar list…
Sometimes we need to be encouraged to move away from the places that we have drifted to. That can be painful, but it is often the case in our Sanctification.
I am surprised by all the “why don’t you try and encourage pastors rather than tear them down” comments on this thread.
I found these assessments to be accurate and encouraging. Pastors have a unique calling before God to equip the saint for the work of the ministry through the faithful preaching of God’s Word and the shepherding of His flock. The descriptions the author gives are a drift away from that central focus…
I remember Alistair Begg having a similar list…
Sometimes we need to be encouraged to move away from the places that we have drifted to. That can be painful, but it is often the case in our Sanctification.
I am surprised by all the “why don’t you try and encourage pastors rather than tear them down” comments on this thread.
I found these assessments to be accurate and encouraging. Pastors have a unique calling before God to equip the saint for the work of the ministry through the faithful preaching of God’s Word and the shepherding of His flock. The descriptions the author gives are a drift away from that central focus…
I remember Alistair Begg having a similar list…
Sometimes we need to be encouraged to move away from the places that we have drifted to. That can be painful, but it is often the case in our Sanctification.
The Hundreds if not Thousands of Pastors I’m Concerned about:
I’m concerned about the negativity that every Pastor deals with every week.
I’m concerned about the gossip which takes place about every Pastor every week.
I’m concerned about the doubt and discouragement that every Pastor experiences.
I’m concerned about the lack of support from the local Church to their Pastor.
I’m concerned about the lack of financial provision for most Pastors in America.
I’m concerned about the freedom people feel to tear down their Pastor.
I’m concerned about the Pastor who essentially does it all because of lack of involvement from the body.
I’m concerned about the Pastor who has a good handle on the items shared above and yet their Church is struggling.
I’m concerned about Christians who tend to shoot their wounded rather than support and walk alongside.
I’m concerned about other Pastor’s who feel very free to criticize and critique people they do not know or even understand.
I’m concerned that many Christians think that the Mega-Church is the norm when the average Pastor shepherds about 75 people and doesn’t make enough to pay his bills.
There is much to be concerned about these days regarding Pastors. Maybe as we ask God to empower us with love and come alongside those Pastors we are “concerned” about we might see God do some really miraculous things. Yes I am a Pastor and yes I’m sure I fit into many of these categories as well as the ones that Scott mentioned above. Though flawed, I will follow my call to shepherd His people.
A pastor or priest who did not suffer any or all of the above would not be emulating Christ Himself and therefore could not be called a true disciple.
Very well said Jerry!
The Hundreds if not Thousands of Pastors I’m Concerned about:
I’m concerned about the negativity that every Pastor deals with every week.
I’m concerned about the gossip which takes place about every Pastor every week.
I’m concerned about the doubt and discouragement that every Pastor experiences.
I’m concerned about the lack of support from the local Church to their Pastor.
I’m concerned about the lack of financial provision for most Pastors in America.
I’m concerned about the freedom people feel to tear down their Pastor.
I’m concerned about the Pastor who essentially does it all because of lack of involvement from the body.
I’m concerned about the Pastor who has a good handle on the items shared above and yet their Church is struggling.
I’m concerned about Christians who tend to shoot their wounded rather than support and walk alongside.
I’m concerned about other Pastor’s who feel very free to criticize and critique people they do not know or even understand.
I’m concerned that many Christians think that the Mega-Church is the norm when the average Pastor shepherds about 75 people and doesn’t make enough to pay his bills.
There is much to be concerned about these days regarding Pastors. Maybe as we ask God to empower us with love and come alongside those Pastors we are “concerned” about we might see God do some really miraculous things. Yes I am a Pastor and yes I’m sure I fit into many of these categories as well as the ones that Scott mentioned above. Though flawed, I will follow my call to shepherd His people.
There are two groups of people: priests, and their critics.
A pastor or priest who did not suffer any or all of the above would not be emulating Christ Himself and therefore could not be called a true disciple.
The reason pastors have many of these problems are because they are making a lot of these mistakes. If you want your members to work alongside you then it cant be your vision they are striving to accomplish but a group vision. Most pastors want to build a bigger church so they can have more members and make more money. Ask your congregation what they want to do. Maybe instead of building a bigger church they want to buy a big piece of land out in the country and work to build a retreat like atmosphere where they can get away from the trials of work, just fellowship and relax with their brothers and sisters. Maybe they want the church to buy homes and fix them up and sell them back to members of the congregation who otherwise couldn’t afford a home. Make it about them and not about you or God. Help out your congregation rather than worrying about the world, your job is to lift them up and make them stronger so that they can go out and lift up the world.
Very well said Jerry!
Thanks for the reply to the primary article. I was the pastor of a church that did what you describe to me and my family. Grateful to God to be set free. I’m finding that I’m more effective these days at making disciples and teaching the faith than ever before – and I only have a few people and no bricks and mortar building to maintain. It’s made me rethink ministry.
so basically, the blogger Scott Postma is none of the 10 things listed above, right? how holy of him
Scott Postma may have been cinvicted by tge Holy Spirit in some of these areas. Scott isn’t saying he has or hasnt ever been any of these type of pastors. I believe what the scripture says that HE THAT KNOWS WHAT IS RIGHT AND DOES IT NOT, TO HIM IT IS SIN. But I ask this, maybe these 10 pastors he speaks of have yet to feel a conviction of the Holy Spirit for their actions or lack thereof.
By this logic, no pastor should be able to preach on any subject, ever. Daniel, give your head a shake. You do not need to achieve sinless perfection to point out error. Only Christ Himself was ever in a position to teach from a platform of perfection.
so basically, the blogger Scott Postma is none of the 10 things listed above, right? how holy of him
Scott Postma may have been cinvicted by tge Holy Spirit in some of these areas. Scott isn’t saying he has or hasnt ever been any of these type of pastors. I believe what the scripture says that HE THAT KNOWS WHAT IS RIGHT AND DOES IT NOT, TO HIM IT IS SIN. But I ask this, maybe these 10 pastors he speaks of have yet to feel a conviction of the Holy Spirit for their actions or lack thereof.
By this logic, no pastor should be able to preach on any subject, ever. Daniel, give your head a shake. You do not need to achieve sinless perfection to point out error. Only Christ Himself was ever in a position to teach from a platform of perfection.
The issue is not about the pastor. It is about what we believe the church is to be. The church is a body connected by the Holy Spirit and and led by Jesus at the head, NOT a single man at the head, who preaches sermons every Sunday. The church can not and will not survive an serve it’s purpose with a single man elevated to a place he does not belong. Christ is the HEAD!
Love this!
The issue is not about the pastor. It is about what we believe the church is to be. The church is a body connected by the Holy Spirit and and led by Jesus at the head, NOT a single man at the head, who preaches sermons every Sunday. The church can not and will not survive an serve it’s purpose with a single man elevated to a place he does not belong. Christ is the HEAD!
Love this!
exactly!
The position of Pastor was always meant to be a servants position. A group of believers get together and outgrow their ability to manage their religious interests because they have jobs and such, and so they elect a pastor. The pastor is there to take orders from the group and fulfill their will while they are away doing their other things. The pastor was never meant to rule over a congregation. Even if he has a board that he answers to, everyone who contributes monetarily to a church should have a vote in the direction that that organization is headed, not just the pastor and a select few, and the board should rotate between every paying member and all books should be open to all paying members.
lol at “the pastor is there to take orders from the group and fulfill their will” and “everyone who contributes monetarily to a church should have a vote in the direction”…. the church is a church, not some business where “investors” get to assume control and make executive decisions. And the pastor is supposed to follow peoples’ wills? What about God’s will? I would never trust some tithing church people to guide the direction of the church. The church isn’t a democracy as much as we Americans would love it to be so. The church is ruled by Christ and elders/deacons are given spiritual authority in the governing of the church. It is a God-ordained structure.
The issue is not about the pastor. It is about what we believe the church is to be. The church is a body connected by the Holy Spirit and and led by Jesus at the head, NOT a single man at the head, who preaches sermons every Sunday. The church can not and will not survive an serve it’s purpose with a single man elevated to a place he does not belong. Christ is the HEAD!
Love this!
exactly!
The position of Pastor was always meant to be a servants position. A group of believers get together and outgrow their ability to manage their religious interests because they have jobs and such, and so they elect a pastor. The pastor is there to take orders from the group and fulfill their will while they are away doing their other things. The pastor was never meant to rule over a congregation. Even if he has a board that he answers to, everyone who contributes monetarily to a church should have a vote in the direction that that organization is headed, not just the pastor and a select few, and the board should rotate between every paying member and all books should be open to all paying members.
Pretty sure that Ephesians 4:11-17 says that the job of the Pastor is to train up the church members to do the work of the ministry. Also Paul says that Pastors who rule well are to be taken care of. Peter tells Elders (Pastors) to Shepherd the flock and to serve as overseers, and to be an example to the flock. (I Peter 5:1-4) I can’t find anywhere in scripture that a Pastor is there to take orders, but to lead the flock as God’s word directs following the example of Jesus as the Chief Shepherd. Sheep don’t dictate where the shepherd goes, the shepherd dictates where the sheep go. Leading is not driving the sheep, leading is not coercing the sheep, The Pastor leads willingly, not for dishonest gain, but eagerly, not as a master and lord, but as an example. All people are not qualified for leadership in the church — Titus 1:5-10; I Timothy 3:1-13, Acts 6:3, so not all should have a turn.
lol at “the pastor is there to take orders from the group and fulfill their will” and “everyone who contributes monetarily to a church should have a vote in the direction”…. the church is a church, not some business where “investors” get to assume control and make executive decisions. And the pastor is supposed to follow peoples’ wills? What about God’s will? I would never trust some tithing church people to guide the direction of the church. The church isn’t a democracy as much as we Americans would love it to be so. The church is ruled by Christ and elders/deacons are given spiritual authority in the governing of the church. It is a God-ordained structure.
I would agree with many of these, but I would push back on a few of them. First, you say that you are concerned with the pastor who functions like a CEO instead of a contemplative sage. My questions is… Is not the Elders responsible for the oversight of their local church? If by CEO you mean a person with vision and the gift of administration coupled with a gift of teaching, then I do not agree with you. Pastor’s are different and do not all have the same gift mix. If they are qualified in character, in testimony, and in skill (they can teach as well as recognize and refute false doctrine), then why can’t they have the gift of administration as well. A CEO pastor builds a team and completes a mission together… this does not have to be devoid of thought! As a matter of fact, most “CEO pastors” are some of the most disciplined men I know in their pursuit of God.
Second, you are concerned about the pastor who is more interested in growing the church than glorifying God. I would absolutely agree, but there seems to be a danger in this statement. It seems to convey that they are mutually exclusive. I am certain that this is not what you are saying, but it comes across like that. What about the pastor who is tirelessly working with people to grow the church for the glory of God? How does one differentiate between the two? This particular concern of yours makes it sound like pastors who are passionate about growing the church must not be passionate about the glory of God.
These are just a few thoughts as I read your blog… thanks for sharing.
I would agree with many of these, but I would push back on a few of them. First, you say that you are concerned with the pastor who functions like a CEO instead of a contemplative sage. My questions is… Is not the Elders responsible for the oversight of their local church? If by CEO you mean a person with vision and the gift of administration coupled with a gift of teaching, then I do not agree with you. Pastor’s are different and do not all have the same gift mix. If they are qualified in character, in testimony, and in skill (they can teach as well as recognize and refute false doctrine), then why can’t they have the gift of administration as well. A CEO pastor builds a team and completes a mission together… this does not have to be devoid of thought! As a matter of fact, most “CEO pastors” are some of the most disciplined men I know in their pursuit of God.
Second, you are concerned about the pastor who is more interested in growing the church than glorifying God. I would absolutely agree, but there seems to be a danger in this statement. It seems to convey that they are mutually exclusive. I am certain that this is not what you are saying, but it comes across like that. What about the pastor who is tirelessly working with people to grow the church for the glory of God? How does one differentiate between the two? This particular concern of yours makes it sound like pastors who are passionate about growing the church must not be passionate about the glory of God.
These are just a few thoughts as I read your blog… thanks for sharing.
I would agree with many of these, but I would push back on a few of them. First, you say that you are concerned with the pastor who functions like a CEO instead of a contemplative sage. My questions is… Is not the Elders responsible for the oversight of their local church? If by CEO you mean a person with vision and the gift of administration coupled with a gift of teaching, then I do not agree with you. Pastor’s are different and do not all have the same gift mix. If they are qualified in character, in testimony, and in skill (they can teach as well as recognize and refute false doctrine), then why can’t they have the gift of administration as well. A CEO pastor builds a team and completes a mission together… this does not have to be devoid of thought! As a matter of fact, most “CEO pastors” are some of the most disciplined men I know in their pursuit of God.
Second, you are concerned about the pastor who is more interested in growing the church than glorifying God. I would absolutely agree, but there seems to be a danger in this statement. It seems to convey that they are mutually exclusive. I am certain that this is not what you are saying, but it comes across like that. What about the pastor who is tirelessly working with people to grow the church for the glory of God? How does one differentiate between the two? This particular concern of yours makes it sound like pastors who are passionate about growing the church must not be passionate about the glory of God.
These are just a few thoughts as I read your blog… thanks for sharing.
I do not like this blog. Seems a bit self aggrandizing.
I do not like this blog. Seems a bit self aggrandizing.
The article is the naked truth as we observe it. It is not directed at the hardworking, self-sacricicing and dedicated pastors labouring in the vineyard but at those pastors (and there are many of them) who have missed the point. If you ever read articles by A. W. Tozer and Leonard Ravenhil, you will understand that this outcry against prodigal pastors had been of old. God bless the prophets.
The article is the naked truth as we observe it. It is not directed at the hardworking, self-sacricicing and dedicated pastors labouring in the vineyard but at those pastors (and there are many of them) who have missed the point. If you ever read articles by A. W. Tozer and Leonard Ravenhil, you will understand that this outcry against prodigal pastors had been of old. God bless the prophets.
The article is the naked truth as we observe it. It is not directed at the hardworking, self-sacricicing and dedicated pastors labouring in the vineyard but at those pastors (and there are many of them) who have missed the point. If you ever read articles by A. W. Tozer and Leonard Ravenhil, you will understand that this outcry against prodigal pastors had been of old. God bless the prophets.
Love this piece!
Love this piece!
As I read the article, I found it difficult to digest, but disciplined myself to do so as a pastor. It is never easy to hear the downside of one’s call, yet refining that call is an ongoing and sometimes difficult process. There is much truth to this article, and I take much from it. At the same time it makes quite a few assumptions about pastors and churches that we could debate for a long time. That though would keep us from gaining the insights it endeavors to make. The basis of the article was the lack of growth of the church in America, and that is a suspicious conversation overall. Generalizing growth or not, or generalizing health or not is not always helpful. Yes, trends do deserve notice, but once noted, applying these concerns and even helps to each of our local settings is of paramount importance. I have applied much to my own and have several take-a-ways. And then some of it I agree to disagree and move on. In the end, I enjoy the body of Christ and spend my time focusing on the good of God’s people, the good of my sheep and build on what foundations others have laid. That is my call, my joy and my responsibility. I do it with passion, call, and one moment at a time.
As I read the article, I found it difficult to digest, but disciplined myself to do so as a pastor. It is never easy to hear the downside of one’s call, yet refining that call is an ongoing and sometimes difficult process. There is much truth to this article, and I take much from it. At the same time it makes quite a few assumptions about pastors and churches that we could debate for a long time. That though would keep us from gaining the insights it endeavors to make. The basis of the article was the lack of growth of the church in America, and that is a suspicious conversation overall. Generalizing growth or not, or generalizing health or not is not always helpful. Yes, trends do deserve notice, but once noted, applying these concerns and even helps to each of our local settings is of paramount importance. I have applied much to my own and have several take-a-ways. And then some of it I agree to disagree and move on. In the end, I enjoy the body of Christ and spend my time focusing on the good of God’s people, the good of my sheep and build on what foundations others have laid. That is my call, my joy and my responsibility. I do it with passion, call, and one moment at a time.
There’s a little bit of all of this in all of us. Thank God we are forgiven. Paul would agree. Philippians 1:15-18 ” It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”
There’s a little bit of all of this in all of us. Thank God we are forgiven. Paul would agree. Philippians 1:15-18 ” It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”
I am surprised as to all the negativity to this article. Are we saying there are no wolves in sheep clothing out there? Are we saying some of the 10 attributes there are not present in churches? Scott has not mentioned any name. He has given examples and we are all criticizing him. I know pastors have it had and this is one more criticism but let us face it, Has scott said anything wrong. I am especially happy about point 4 and 5 because there is so much abuse of authority with regards to both.
You should know that people hate the truth.
Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
People would rather hear heresies than sound doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.
Please don’t be surprised.
Our country Nigeria is facing an onslaught of false teachers in churches.
This is prevalent in the west already.
EG RCCG is being infiltrated at an alarming rate now, especially from The UK & the USA.
Amen olu! This is an excellent article that serves as a “check point” especially for those of us who serve in the pastorate.
I am surprised as to all the negativity to this article. Are we saying there are no wolves in sheep clothing out there? Are we saying some of the 10 attributes there are not present in churches? Scott has not mentioned any name. He has given examples and we are all criticizing him. I know pastors have it had and this is one more criticism but let us face it, Has scott said anything wrong. I am especially happy about point 4 and 5 because there is so much abuse of authority with regards to both.
You should know that people hate the truth.
Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
People would rather hear heresies than sound doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.
Please don’t be surprised.
Our country Nigeria is facing an onslaught of false teachers in churches.
This is prevalent in the west already.
EG RCCG is being infiltrated at an alarming rate now, especially from The UK & the USA.
Amen olu! This is an excellent article that serves as a “check point” especially for those of us who serve in the pastorate.
I am surprised as to all the negativity to this article. Are we saying there are no wolves in sheep clothing out there? Are we saying some of the 10 attributes there are not present in churches? Scott has not mentioned any name. He has given examples and we are all criticizing him. I know pastors have it had and this is one more criticism but let us face it, Has scott said anything wrong. I am especially happy about point 4 and 5 because there is so much abuse of authority with regards to both.
You should know that people hate the truth.
Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
People would rather hear heresies than sound doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.
Please don’t be surprised.
Our country Nigeria is facing an onslaught of false teachers in churches.
This is prevalent in the west already.
EG RCCG is being infiltrated at an alarming rate now, especially from The UK & the USA.
Amen olu! This is an excellent article that serves as a “check point” especially for those of us who serve in the pastorate.
Hey nice article. There are so many ways pastors (and everyone) can make mistakes. Some are innocent, some not so innocent.
What has discouraged me over the years in the church is a general aversion to being better communicators. Many pastors preach with a complexity and weightiness that simply confuses many sheep that are actually looking to be fed. I’m not sure Jesus Himself would even be invited back to preach at some churches because parables would be looked at as ‘dumbing down’ and ‘catering to the culture.’ The fact is, Pastors are–among many other things–communicators. That doesn’t mean that the goal is to be Tony Robbins. But Paul says in Colossians 4:4 that he should proclaim the Gospel clearly! This is a desire to be a good communicator. Clarity is key, and its a skill that can be learned, honed and improved over a lifetime. I don’t know any pastors that have ever tried to become better communicators, because there is this fear that they will be viewed as trite and consumer driven. But its clear that Paul wanted to be a clear communicator of the Gospel.
Like Milton said, the hungry sheep look up and are not fed. I’m afraid this is happening in churches that are otherwise very solid, but are not building up the body into the Head–Christ–because no one understands what the pastor is saying.
If youre a pastor, youre a Teacher. The best teachers keep it clear and simple and help the students grasp and apply the message. Luther embraced this idea in his passion to reach the common folk that had been denied the Word for so many years. We should do the same.
Hey nice article. There are so many ways pastors (and everyone) can make mistakes. Some are innocent, some not so innocent.
What has discouraged me over the years in the church is a general aversion to being better communicators. Many pastors preach with a complexity and weightiness that simply confuses many sheep that are actually looking to be fed. I’m not sure Jesus Himself would even be invited back to preach at some churches because parables would be looked at as ‘dumbing down’ and ‘catering to the culture.’ The fact is, Pastors are–among many other things–communicators. That doesn’t mean that the goal is to be Tony Robbins. But Paul says in Colossians 4:4 that he should proclaim the Gospel clearly! This is a desire to be a good communicator. Clarity is key, and its a skill that can be learned, honed and improved over a lifetime. I don’t know any pastors that have ever tried to become better communicators, because there is this fear that they will be viewed as trite and consumer driven. But its clear that Paul wanted to be a clear communicator of the Gospel.
Like Milton said, the hungry sheep look up and are not fed. I’m afraid this is happening in churches that are otherwise very solid, but are not building up the body into the Head–Christ–because no one understands what the pastor is saying.
If youre a pastor, youre a Teacher. The best teachers keep it clear and simple and help the students grasp and apply the message. Luther embraced this idea in his passion to reach the common folk that had been denied the Word for so many years. We should do the same.
As a pastor’s daughter, I have been a follower of Christ my entire life but accepted the gift of salvation when I was nine years old. My husband and I are wondering why churches are doing tons if sermon series that are easy teachings rather than challenging those that have been following HIM for 30 years. New Christian families need easy teachings, like milk to a newborn infant but what about those that have been followers of Christ for a long time, we need some more in depth teachings like Steak to an adult. I’ve also been abused within a church as I was a part of the worship team as God has given me the gift of singing to use for His glory to usher in the presence if the Holy Spirit and lead others in to worship with God and ive sung all my life and was recently kicked out not knowing why and cant even get a call back from the head worship leader, and no, it isnt my dads church, my dad is retired. Just some things I dont understand. Thoughts?
Many Christians want the meat of the word as they feel they have outgrown the milk. The truth is that there is no meet in the word, the meet of the word is found in the doing of the word. When you feel you have outgrown the milk it is time for you to go out and do the things you have been taught. Churches are there to fill certain roles in our lives, one is to help new believers learn the basics(The Milk) and the other is to give us a place to fellowship with our brothers and sisters, to be uplifted and encouraged. If your church isn’t a place like that then its time to find a new church. Don’t feel like its a bad thing to leave a church behind, find a place that will let you come and fellowship without putting pressure on you to join or conform to their assembly.
Bingo! Jesus says in John 4:34 – “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.”
Hey nice article. There are so many ways pastors (and everyone) can make mistakes. Some are innocent, some not so innocent.
What has discouraged me over the years in the church is a general aversion to being better communicators. Many pastors preach with a complexity and weightiness that simply confuses many sheep that are actually looking to be fed. I’m not sure Jesus Himself would even be invited back to preach at some churches because parables would be looked at as ‘dumbing down’ and ‘catering to the culture.’ The fact is, Pastors are–among many other things–communicators. That doesn’t mean that the goal is to be Tony Robbins. But Paul says in Colossians 4:4 that he should proclaim the Gospel clearly! This is a desire to be a good communicator. Clarity is key, and its a skill that can be learned, honed and improved over a lifetime. I don’t know any pastors that have ever tried to become better communicators, because there is this fear that they will be viewed as trite and consumer driven. But its clear that Paul wanted to be a clear communicator of the Gospel.
Like Milton said, the hungry sheep look up and are not fed. I’m afraid this is happening in churches that are otherwise very solid, but are not building up the body into the Head–Christ–because no one understands what the pastor is saying.
If youre a pastor, youre a Teacher. The best teachers keep it clear and simple and help the students grasp and apply the message. Luther embraced this idea in his passion to reach the common folk that had been denied the Word for so many years. We should do the same.
As a pastor’s daughter, I have been a follower of Christ my entire life but accepted the gift of salvation when I was nine years old. My husband and I are wondering why churches are doing tons if sermon series that are easy teachings rather than challenging those that have been following HIM for 30 years. New Christian families need easy teachings, like milk to a newborn infant but what about those that have been followers of Christ for a long time, we need some more in depth teachings like Steak to an adult. I’ve also been abused within a church as I was a part of the worship team as God has given me the gift of singing to use for His glory to usher in the presence if the Holy Spirit and lead others in to worship with God and ive sung all my life and was recently kicked out not knowing why and cant even get a call back from the head worship leader, and no, it isnt my dads church, my dad is retired. Just some things I dont understand. Thoughts?
Many Christians want the meat of the word as they feel they have outgrown the milk. The truth is that there is no meet in the word, the meet of the word is found in the doing of the word. When you feel you have outgrown the milk it is time for you to go out and do the things you have been taught. Churches are there to fill certain roles in our lives, one is to help new believers learn the basics(The Milk) and the other is to give us a place to fellowship with our brothers and sisters, to be uplifted and encouraged. If your church isn’t a place like that then its time to find a new church. Don’t feel like its a bad thing to leave a church behind, find a place that will let you come and fellowship without putting pressure on you to join or conform to their assembly.
Bingo! Jesus says in John 4:34 – “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.”
I am just as concerned with the board which takes similar positions or which sees it as there responsibility to run the Pastor or the Congregation!
I am just as concerned with the board which takes similar positions or which sees it as there responsibility to run the Pastor or the Congregation!
I am just as concerned with the board which takes similar positions or which sees it as there responsibility to run the Pastor or the Congregation!
You have a gift for highlighting the obvious… I have a concern for the church member looking to make a name for himself by majoring in minor, insignificant, and negative issues- further exacerbating division in the church…instead of focusing on more important matters like coming alongside as a servant to build, encourage, or just pray for whatever pastor that did this to you, and placed such a chip on your shoulder. This article is an example of “flesh and blood” battle – you’ve been duped. Remember next time “before the diatribe” that , “the battle is the Lords.” And so are “His” elect…even Pastors.
You have a gift for highlighting the obvious… I have a concern for the church member looking to make a name for himself by majoring in minor, insignificant, and negative issues- further exacerbating division in the church…instead of focusing on more important matters like coming alongside as a servant to build, encourage, or just pray for whatever pastor that did this to you, and placed such a chip on your shoulder. This article is an example of “flesh and blood” battle – you’ve been duped. Remember next time “before the diatribe” that , “the battle is the Lords.” And so are “His” elect…even Pastors.
As a Pastor myself, I have many misgivings concerning some of my colleagues. I am concerned about Pastors who have double standards when dealing with influential church members and those on the periphery of the church; I have concerns about Pastors who deem “Secondary issues” anything which may cause them to upset serious financial contributors to the church; I have concerns about Pastors who play the “Gracious” card to cover such pragmatism; I have concerns about these same Pastors who then critique in the most microscopic way other Ministers.
Of course, we can all look at the TV evangelist and such like and see many things which cause alarm. However, within conservative evangelicalism we have more than enough to sort out before we move on to other sections of the Christian world. Without in anyway defending the issues highlighted above, the hypocrisy, intolerance and adherence to an evangelical subculture which often bears little Scriptural warrant is surely no less displeasing to God and off putting to unbelievers than the excesses of mega churches? Planks and splinters come to mind together with judgement needing to begin at the house of God
As a Pastor myself, I have many misgivings concerning some of my colleagues. I am concerned about Pastors who have double standards when dealing with influential church members and those on the periphery of the church; I have concerns about Pastors who deem “Secondary issues” anything which may cause them to upset serious financial contributors to the church; I have concerns about Pastors who play the “Gracious” card to cover such pragmatism; I have concerns about these same Pastors who then critique in the most microscopic way other Ministers.
Of course, we can all look at the TV evangelist and such like and see many things which cause alarm. However, within conservative evangelicalism we have more than enough to sort out before we move on to other sections of the Christian world. Without in anyway defending the issues highlighted above, the hypocrisy, intolerance and adherence to an evangelical subculture which often bears little Scriptural warrant is surely no less displeasing to God and off putting to unbelievers than the excesses of mega churches? Planks and splinters come to mind together with judgement needing to begin at the house of God
A fews years ago, the Lord gave me an acronym regarding the church. I heard the phrase, “No more GAMES”. Then came the definition: Give it All to Me, Empty yourSelves.
We should be emptied out before the Lord, all of us. Only then, can He truly fill us with the kind of Love He has, which will flow in and through us by His holy spirit.
We need to come humbly into His Presence and seek His desires for our lives, for what He has for us to accomplish in our place in His body.
I believe many are seeing a different church, one that is playing games. God needs to be put back on the throne.
A fews years ago, the Lord gave me an acronym regarding the church. I heard the phrase, “No more GAMES”. Then came the definition: Give it All to Me, Empty yourSelves.
We should be emptied out before the Lord, all of us. Only then, can He truly fill us with the kind of Love He has, which will flow in and through us by His holy spirit.
We need to come humbly into His Presence and seek His desires for our lives, for what He has for us to accomplish in our place in His body.
I believe many are seeing a different church, one that is playing games. God needs to be put back on the throne.
RE: #8. I think it’s the wrong question. I no longer ask if the Bible is literal or non literal (or literary as the author put it) I ask if it’s true or not. I think we do a disservice to the Bible (and ultimately ourselves) if we think in terms of this dichotomy in a box. I’ve had some very strange encounters with God and all things related to the other realms in the past couple of years which have blurred the line between literal and non literal. I can’t fully rest in one camp or the other anymore, rather it’s something completely different.
RE: #8. I think it’s the wrong question. I no longer ask if the Bible is literal or non literal (or literary as the author put it) I ask if it’s true or not. I think we do a disservice to the Bible (and ultimately ourselves) if we think in terms of this dichotomy in a box. I’ve had some very strange encounters with God and all things related to the other realms in the past couple of years which have blurred the line between literal and non literal. I can’t fully rest in one camp or the other anymore, rather it’s something completely different.
RE: #8. I think it’s the wrong question. I no longer ask if the Bible is literal or non literal (or literary as the author put it) I ask if it’s true or not. I think we do a disservice to the Bible (and ultimately ourselves) if we think in terms of this dichotomy in a box. I’ve had some very strange encounters with God and all things related to the other realms in the past couple of years which have blurred the line between literal and non literal. I can’t fully rest in one camp or the other anymore, rather it’s something completely different.
Dave, I am concerned about people like you who make light of the genuine concerns of God’s people and turn it back on them.
Where did Dave make light of anything? He gave a very good critique of the current state of much of what passes for preaching and pastoring. This was a superb article.
My bad. I was addressing the article. I agree with your assessment of Dave’s comment. Delete mine if you would, Mr. Moderator.
Dave, I am concerned about people like you who make light of the genuine concerns of God’s people and turn it back on them.
Where did Dave make light of anything? He gave a very good critique of the current state of much of what passes for preaching and pastoring. This was a superb article.
My bad. I was addressing the article. I agree with your assessment of Dave’s comment. Delete mine if you would, Mr. Moderator.
I’m also concerned about ministers who have no idea what they are doing and on top of that, ministers who have no idea what it means to be called into ministry
I’m also concerned about ministers who have no idea what they are doing and on top of that, ministers who have no idea what it means to be called into ministry
Terrific article. Thanks for articulating the concerns of far too few pastors (like me.)
Terrific article. Thanks for articulating the concerns of far too few pastors (like me.)
Terrific article. Thanks for articulating the concerns of far too few pastors (like me.)
There are certainly truths here…..but most of this is just setting up a straw man and then knocking him down……Pastors are just men and the church needs to pray for their pastor…..they are the ones Satan wants to destroy first and foremost…….not sure what the motives were for writing this article but it did not not seem helpful but could be hurtful and harmful to the Kingdom…..
Cindy I think you are right
There are certainly truths here…..but most of this is just setting up a straw man and then knocking him down……Pastors are just men and the church needs to pray for their pastor…..they are the ones Satan wants to destroy first and foremost…….not sure what the motives were for writing this article but it did not not seem helpful but could be hurtful and harmful to the Kingdom…..
There are certainly truths here…..but most of this is just setting up a straw man and then knocking him down……Pastors are just men and the church needs to pray for their pastor…..they are the ones Satan wants to destroy first and foremost…….not sure what the motives were for writing this article but it did not not seem helpful but could be hurtful and harmful to the Kingdom…..
Cindy I think you are right
What makes me panic most about pastors is that we don’t get to choose them, we don’t chose our pastors, they’re already there as we become christians and join the church, or as we arrive in a new place.
We don’t like the pastor, we can’t just leave the church and pick another one as we leave some special people in the church behind that we are not ready to give up.
What makes me panic most about pastors is that we don’t get to choose them, we don’t chose our pastors, they’re already there as we become christians and join the church, or as we arrive in a new place.
We don’t like the pastor, we can’t just leave the church and pick another one as we leave some special people in the church behind that we are not ready to give up.
I’m concerned about the blogger who only writes “he” and “his” when referring to sample pastors while forgetting to also equally sprinkle in “she” and “her.”
Amen! Forgot there are women pastors! Seriously faulted post.
I’m concerned about the blogger who only writes “he” and “his” when referring to sample pastors while forgetting to also equally sprinkle in “she” and “her.”
Amen! Forgot there are women pastors! Seriously faulted post.
I’m concerned about the blogger who only writes “he” and “his” when referring to sample pastors while forgetting to also equally sprinkle in “she” and “her.”
Amen! Forgot there are women pastors! Seriously faulted post.
Seriously faulted post when you leave out all women pastors. Seriously? It’s 2014.
I’m concerned some people are too stuck in feminism hype. Just because the pronoun ‘he’ was used doesn’t mean this can’t apply to women. People needing to get past themselves is a big factor in church decline as well.
Seriously faulted post when you leave out all women pastors. Seriously? It’s 2014.
I agree. Almost impossible to read all the way through. I am concerned about the person who thinks of men only when she or he thinks of pastors.
Amen brother! My sentiments exactly.
Seriously faulted post when you leave out all women pastors. Seriously? It’s 2014.
I agree. Almost impossible to read all the way through. I am concerned about the person who thinks of men only when she or he thinks of pastors.
Amen brother! My sentiments exactly.
I’m concerned some people are too stuck in feminism hype. Just because the pronoun ‘he’ was used doesn’t mean this can’t apply to women. People needing to get past themselves is a big factor in church decline as well.
I’m concerned about bloggers who find it easy to take potshots at people because the sit behind a computer rather than truly engaging with the lost, the hurting, the least of these or even pastors who need encouragement rather than criticism .
I agree with this. We don’t have to tear down every person we happen to disagree with or better yet fail to understand from the view point of God. Take your negative energy and build up the leaders in your circle of influence to love the world rather than pointing the pastor next to you doesn’t manage the gifts from above the same way you would. In the NT, they trusted that the apostles would distribute how they saw fit, they didn’t sit and nit pick that the offering was used to maybe by farmer John a new barn for his family, and who are you to say that God didn’t tell that one pastor to have a state of the art sound system cause he saw it fit to bring God glory in a sound that is clear and excellent. (Acts 4:34) Lets encourage one another to our own capacity rather than beat up our family (like it or not they’re brothers and sisters). Pray for them and leave it in God’s hands you don’t have to give account for them before the throne of God, lets give an account of the talents He’s given us and us alone.
You must not have read that part where it mentions he is a church planter. You would do well to research the person before making statements.
I’m concerned about bloggers who find it easy to take potshots at people because the sit behind a computer rather than truly engaging with the lost, the hurting, the least of these or even pastors who need encouragement rather than criticism .
You must not have read that part where it mentions he is a church planter. You would do well to research the person before making statements.
I’m concerned about bloggers who find it easy to take potshots at people because the sit behind a computer rather than truly engaging with the lost, the hurting, the least of these or even pastors who need encouragement rather than criticism .
I agree with this. We don’t have to tear down every person we happen to disagree with or better yet fail to understand from the view point of God. Take your negative energy and build up the leaders in your circle of influence to love the world rather than pointing the pastor next to you doesn’t manage the gifts from above the same way you would. In the NT, they trusted that the apostles would distribute how they saw fit, they didn’t sit and nit pick that the offering was used to maybe by farmer John a new barn for his family, and who are you to say that God didn’t tell that one pastor to have a state of the art sound system cause he saw it fit to bring God glory in a sound that is clear and excellent. (Acts 4:34) Lets encourage one another to our own capacity rather than beat up our family (like it or not they’re brothers and sisters). Pray for them and leave it in God’s hands you don’t have to give account for them before the throne of God, lets give an account of the talents He’s given us and us alone.
You must not have read that part where it mentions he is a church planter. You would do well to research the person before making statements.
A true pastor doing God’s work righteously won’t be bothered by his post. In fact he will be happy that someone is aware that there are many wolf in sheep’s clothing.
When I was a believer I would have whole heartily agreed with this post. Even now, I would agree that such pastors are something to be wary of, though I feel my opinion as an atheist would not be welcome amongst certain groups.
That said, many of these kinds of pastors might lead (unintentionally mind you) their flock to doubt. But I no longer see this as a bad thing, but something to embrace and struggle with.
I don’t know what your theology entails (I have only read this one post), but a god of wisdom and love could never punish doubt or skepticism, even if (or rather especially) one dies in such a state. That would neither be just nor consistent with his nature.
When I was a believer I would have whole heartily agreed with this post. Even now, I would agree that such pastors are something to be wary of, though I feel my opinion as an atheist would not be welcome amongst certain groups.
That said, many of these kinds of pastors might lead (unintentionally mind you) their flock to doubt. But I no longer see this as a bad thing, but something to embrace and struggle with.
I don’t know what your theology entails (I have only read this one post), but a god of wisdom and love could never punish doubt or skepticism, even if (or rather especially) one dies in such a state. That would neither be just nor consistent with his nature.
Good thoughts but go back and edit it to include women unless you believe these only apply to men…because that is the way it reads right now!
Good thoughts but go back and edit it to include women unless you believe these only apply to men…because that is the way it reads right now!
I agree but I am even more concerned with denominational leaders who expect pastors to do these things and measure them as signs of “effectiveness” in ministry. That being said, there are many laity who also have their priorities in the wrong place and won’t accept a pastor’s leadership even if he/she did do it all “right”. Decline is due to problems at any or every level of church participation.
I agree but I am even more concerned with denominational leaders who expect pastors to do these things and measure them as signs of “effectiveness” in ministry. That being said, there are many laity who also have their priorities in the wrong place and won’t accept a pastor’s leadership even if he/she did do it all “right”. Decline is due to problems at any or every level of church participation.
I agree but I am even more concerned with denominational leaders who expect pastors to do these things and measure them as signs of “effectiveness” in ministry. That being said, there are many laity who also have their priorities in the wrong place and won’t accept a pastor’s leadership even if he/she did do it all “right”. Decline is due to problems at any or every level of church participation.
Great, great article. The church in the US is in decline. We have been a part of churches from the west coast to the east and have seen pastors fall into these. ( and have seen some great God honoring ones as well. ) We’ve seen many lives destroyed by pastors like this- and it is terribly sad.
Great, great article. The church in the US is in decline. We have been a part of churches from the west coast to the east and have seen pastors fall into these. ( and have seen some great God honoring ones as well. ) We’ve seen many lives destroyed by pastors like this- and it is terribly sad.
Great, great article. The church in the US is in decline. We have been a part of churches from the west coast to the east and have seen pastors fall into these. ( and have seen some great God honoring ones as well. ) We’ve seen many lives destroyed by pastors like this- and it is terribly sad.
This article has obviously struck the chord of many people’s hearts, and has shown that many hearts are out of tune with God’s Word. If you are not abiding in Him and setting His Word as the standard and authority in your life, then you cannot hear Truth and cannot see the veil that has been slipped over your eyes. These concerns are valid and very much present in the western church, more correctly, in the church of America where independence is our ultimate goal and we all want to be bigger and better. It’s not about us. It’s all about CHRIST. And Christ has been taken out of the center of Church. We are more concerned with our image, our rights, our opinions than being examples of Christ and living lives that He called us to live.
Well said.
This article has obviously struck the chord of many people’s hearts, and has shown that many hearts are out of tune with God’s Word. If you are not abiding in Him and setting His Word as the standard and authority in your life, then you cannot hear Truth and cannot see the veil that has been slipped over your eyes. These concerns are valid and very much present in the western church, more correctly, in the church of America where independence is our ultimate goal and we all want to be bigger and better. It’s not about us. It’s all about CHRIST. And Christ has been taken out of the center of Church. We are more concerned with our image, our rights, our opinions than being examples of Christ and living lives that He called us to live.
This article has obviously struck the chord of many people’s hearts, and has shown that many hearts are out of tune with God’s Word. If you are not abiding in Him and setting His Word as the standard and authority in your life, then you cannot hear Truth and cannot see the veil that has been slipped over your eyes. These concerns are valid and very much present in the western church, more correctly, in the church of America where independence is our ultimate goal and we all want to be bigger and better. It’s not about us. It’s all about CHRIST. And Christ has been taken out of the center of Church. We are more concerned with our image, our rights, our opinions than being examples of Christ and living lives that He called us to live.
Well said.
I think this is a very good article, and one that any true Bible believer should agree with. As leaders we model what we believe. Our heart should be to see every believers ministry developed, (Eph. 4) The focus should not be on the platform etc. Most ministry is done outside Sunday morning, in our homes, business ……..Is the church successful? Is it salt and light? I think God is waking us up to a new paradigm, and I see many churches that are getting serious about involving people in a way they will get the attention they need to grow and be used. III John 2 KJV
.
I think this is a very good article, and one that any true Bible believer should agree with. As leaders we model what we believe. Our heart should be to see every believers ministry developed, (Eph. 4) The focus should not be on the platform etc. Most ministry is done outside Sunday morning, in our homes, business ……..Is the church successful? Is it salt and light? I think God is waking us up to a new paradigm, and I see many churches that are getting serious about involving people in a way they will get the attention they need to grow and be used. III John 2 KJV
.
Linda—I agree whole heartedly! I have a son, that has a heart for God, whose business takes him into more homes than any pastor. He is always looking for ‘open doors’, to talk about God, and His wonderful love. You would be surprised, at the spiritual fruit, of his secular job. God wants us to live in the ‘open’, to let our lights shine for Him.
I think this is a very good article, and one that any true Bible believer should agree with. As leaders we model what we believe. Our heart should be to see every believers ministry developed, (Eph. 4) The focus should not be on the platform etc. Most ministry is done outside Sunday morning, in our homes, business ……..Is the church successful? Is it salt and light? I think God is waking us up to a new paradigm, and I see many churches that are getting serious about involving people in a way they will get the attention they need to grow and be used. III John 2 KJV
.
Linda—I agree whole heartedly! I have a son, that has a heart for God, whose business takes him into more homes than any pastor. He is always looking for ‘open doors’, to talk about God, and His wonderful love. You would be surprised, at the spiritual fruit, of his secular job. God wants us to live in the ‘open’, to let our lights shine for Him.
A great novel on this theme is “and the Shofar Blew” by Francine Rivers.
A great novel on this theme is “and the Shofar Blew” by Francine Rivers.
Thank You!!!!
GOD Bless YOU!!!
Thank You!!!!
GOD Bless YOU!!!
Thank You!!!!
GOD Bless YOU!!!
I am tired of Pastors who preach and teach the same thing over and over and over again. I am tired to the bone of hearing about my spiritual life, the life of David, Moses, The Disciples, The Early Church, Creation, The Fruits of the Spirit, The Tongue, The Fall of Israel, The Feeding of the Five Thousand, The Life of Christ, THE GOSPLE OF JOHN, and so forth. We have heard them all from the cradle. And yes new believers need to hear these lessons. But I want to go deeper, and I have been pushed aside so much. I have been told that nobody want to learn about the anthropological side of Biblical times. Nobody wants to learn the cultural reasons behind most of the laws. We wont teach you those things is what I get told. I feel at this point in my life I am not going to apologize for having wonderful Christian parents who taught me everyday, and I am not going to apologize for them sending me to a fantastic Christian school that made my understanding of the Bible so much deeper. But I fear I will have to abandon the church altogether and take my yearning for a deeper knowledge of God to seminary. At least they are willing to teach me.
Katie, a very mature and Godly woman once told me that when you stop asking why you have to read a certain scripture, or have to listen to a certain message again and again, is when you have learned the lesson God has for you. I love inductive Bible study, but have learned thatI grow the most spiritually when I read and let God speak to me. God bless you.
I am tired of Pastors who preach and teach the same thing over and over and over again. I am tired to the bone of hearing about my spiritual life, the life of David, Moses, The Disciples, The Early Church, Creation, The Fruits of the Spirit, The Tongue, The Fall of Israel, The Feeding of the Five Thousand, The Life of Christ, THE GOSPLE OF JOHN, and so forth. We have heard them all from the cradle. And yes new believers need to hear these lessons. But I want to go deeper, and I have been pushed aside so much. I have been told that nobody want to learn about the anthropological side of Biblical times. Nobody wants to learn the cultural reasons behind most of the laws. We wont teach you those things is what I get told. I feel at this point in my life I am not going to apologize for having wonderful Christian parents who taught me everyday, and I am not going to apologize for them sending me to a fantastic Christian school that made my understanding of the Bible so much deeper. But I fear I will have to abandon the church altogether and take my yearning for a deeper knowledge of God to seminary. At least they are willing to teach me.
Katie, the Christian walk is certainly fueled by knowledge, but it’s about relationship – with God, with one another inside the local church, and with others outside the local church who need to be saved. All your knowledge and seeking of knowledge is great if you can see knowledge as fuel. Fuel makes a machine run – it’s valuable for getting somewhere or getting something done, but it’s never an end in and of itself. Just as the seminary is there for the sake of the local church, so also you with all your vast knowledge are among God’s people for the sake of building up God’s people. Get together with some people from some lively church and add your knowledge to the others’ gifts, and let God have his way with you all. Knowledge to the exclusion of fellowship, relationship, purpose, and love will lead you into a lonely despair. Be well, love God’s people, and worship the King!
Katie, a very mature and Godly woman once told me that when you stop asking why you have to read a certain scripture, or have to listen to a certain message again and again, is when you have learned the lesson God has for you. I love inductive Bible study, but have learned thatI grow the most spiritually when I read and let God speak to me. God bless you.
I am tired of Pastors who preach and teach the same thing over and over and over again. I am tired to the bone of hearing about my spiritual life, the life of David, Moses, The Disciples, The Early Church, Creation, The Fruits of the Spirit, The Tongue, The Fall of Israel, The Feeding of the Five Thousand, The Life of Christ, THE GOSPLE OF JOHN, and so forth. We have heard them all from the cradle. And yes new believers need to hear these lessons. But I want to go deeper, and I have been pushed aside so much. I have been told that nobody want to learn about the anthropological side of Biblical times. Nobody wants to learn the cultural reasons behind most of the laws. We wont teach you those things is what I get told. I feel at this point in my life I am not going to apologize for having wonderful Christian parents who taught me everyday, and I am not going to apologize for them sending me to a fantastic Christian school that made my understanding of the Bible so much deeper. But I fear I will have to abandon the church altogether and take my yearning for a deeper knowledge of God to seminary. At least they are willing to teach me.
Katie, the Christian walk is certainly fueled by knowledge, but it’s about relationship – with God, with one another inside the local church, and with others outside the local church who need to be saved. All your knowledge and seeking of knowledge is great if you can see knowledge as fuel. Fuel makes a machine run – it’s valuable for getting somewhere or getting something done, but it’s never an end in and of itself. Just as the seminary is there for the sake of the local church, so also you with all your vast knowledge are among God’s people for the sake of building up God’s people. Get together with some people from some lively church and add your knowledge to the others’ gifts, and let God have his way with you all. Knowledge to the exclusion of fellowship, relationship, purpose, and love will lead you into a lonely despair. Be well, love God’s people, and worship the King!
I endorse your response!
‘T’, I endorse your response. We may be interested in anthropological and historical facts, but to what end? In the universities, these are courses that are geared to prepare people to take action for the good of humankind. Will we use such facts to advance the cause of the Kingdom of God? Will they help our spiritual growth or merely fill some intellectual need?
Katie, a very mature and Godly woman once told me that when you stop asking why you have to read a certain scripture, or have to listen to a certain message again and again, is when you have learned the lesson God has for you. I love inductive Bible study, but have learned thatI grow the most spiritually when I read and let God speak to me. God bless you.
A thoughtful post. However, I’d be inclined to pay more attention to its message if it came from someone outside the church, those people the writer suggests should be our principal concern. The words I’d expect to hear would be “irrelevant, hypocritical, condemning, divisive, exclusive, anti-intellectual,” and the like. In other words, “I don’t need whatever it is you think you have to offer me.” Pastors contribute to the problem, but are certainly not the whole problem.
We’re sending our young people to college where they’re trained in critical thinking, a discipline where religion doesn’t fare particularly well. Churches generally lose when families disperse geographically, ideologically, and intellectually.
A thoughtful post. However, I’d be inclined to pay more attention to its message if it came from someone outside the church, those people the writer suggests should be our principal concern. The words I’d expect to hear would be “irrelevant, hypocritical, condemning, divisive, exclusive, anti-intellectual,” and the like. In other words, “I don’t need whatever it is you think you have to offer me.” Pastors contribute to the problem, but are certainly not the whole problem.
We’re sending our young people to college where they’re trained in critical thinking, a discipline where religion doesn’t fare particularly well. Churches generally lose when families disperse geographically, ideologically, and intellectually.
An excellent article, and I’d go with most of it, but would add another. The pastor who sees himself as above other leaders in the church, at the pinnacle of authority. The New Testament envisaged teams of leaders in local churches (elders, presbyters, bishops, overseers – depending on your translation). The emotional and political struggle for pastoral supremacy has drained many an otherwise good man.
Katie, the Christian walk is certainly fueled by knowledge, but it’s about relationship – with God, with one another inside the local church, and with others outside the local church who need to be saved. All your knowledge and seeking of knowledge is great if you can see knowledge as fuel. Fuel makes a machine run – it’s valuable for getting somewhere or getting something done, but it’s never an end in and of itself. Just as the seminary is there for the sake of the local church, so also you with all your vast knowledge are among God’s people for the sake of building up God’s people. Get together with some people from some lively church and add your knowledge to the others’ gifts, and let God have his way with you all. Knowledge to the exclusion of fellowship, relationship, purpose, and love will lead you into a lonely despair. Be well, love God’s people, and worship the King!
An excellent article, and I’d go with most of it, but would add another. The pastor who sees himself as above other leaders in the church, at the pinnacle of authority. The New Testament envisaged teams of leaders in local churches (elders, presbyters, bishops, overseers – depending on your translation). The emotional and political struggle for pastoral supremacy has drained many an otherwise good man.
Katie, the Christian walk is certainly fueled by knowledge, but it’s about relationship – with God, with one another inside the local church, and with others outside the local church who need to be saved. All your knowledge and seeking of knowledge is great if you can see knowledge as fuel. Fuel makes a machine run – it’s valuable for getting somewhere or getting something done, but it’s never an end in and of itself. Just as the seminary is there for the sake of the local church, so also you with all your vast knowledge are among God’s people for the sake of building up God’s people. Get together with some people from some lively church and add your knowledge to the others’ gifts, and let God have his way with you all. Knowledge to the exclusion of fellowship, relationship, purpose, and love will lead you into a lonely despair. Be well, love God’s people, and worship the King!
Good points, but I see the problem in ” paid clergyship” in general. There is no biblical backing of the idea of having a paid leader in church. Many churches grow up to the point until they can afford their pastor to be paid by them and then stop growing. Many problems in church arise from ideas like ” pastors are the king of the church ” or the ” tithing doctrine ” which is not in the new testament at all. I worked full time in a church under a pastor who taught that the people in church are here to serve him and his vision. His teaching was: “God will implement my ( the pastors) vision in your heart” and you have to give your money too… At least 10% belomgs to the church. He invited an US preacher who said in public:” 60% of the people in this room dont have the right to be here, for you are not tithing!”
The problem is… Even when disagreeing with such nonsense nobody is opposing junk like that in public when it is said by ” gods generals’s”
Good points, but I see the problem in ” paid clergyship” in general. There is no biblical backing of the idea of having a paid leader in church. Many churches grow up to the point until they can afford their pastor to be paid by them and then stop growing. Many problems in church arise from ideas like ” pastors are the king of the church ” or the ” tithing doctrine ” which is not in the new testament at all. I worked full time in a church under a pastor who taught that the people in church are here to serve him and his vision. His teaching was: “God will implement my ( the pastors) vision in your heart” and you have to give your money too… At least 10% belomgs to the church. He invited an US preacher who said in public:” 60% of the people in this room dont have the right to be here, for you are not tithing!”
The problem is… Even when disagreeing with such nonsense nobody is opposing junk like that in public when it is said by ” gods generals’s”
11. The failure to recognize females as clergy. Inclusive language is important on multiple levels, but especially for the Church, where God calls both women and men to the ordained ministry. Feminism has nothing to do with using inclusive language, instead using inclusive language is a sign of respect – a female does not want, nor does she deserve to be referred to as he, and a male clergy does not want, nor deserve to be referred to as she….
Absolutely. Spot on. Being excluded creates a sense of irrelevance. Why engage with an institution which excludes, most especially when It does not mirror Jesus’ inclusivity? What Jesus taught was relevant because it addressed the human soul and bypassed exclusivity and social constructs of the day.
Actually, using inclusive language instead of saying he/his/him is directly related to feminism because it is a new phenomenon. The English language has always placed the masculine form in when using a general reference. It is only with the advent of modern feminism that this has been challenged. In addition, most are not attempting to be exclusive by using masculine terms when writing or speaking in general terms. Furthermore, Jesus is used as a reference for inclusiveness and ordained ministry for women. Admittedly, I am one that struggles with this issue because, although I was raised in a group that promotes such, it is absent from both the NT and Church history. How do you thus justify attacking the writer of this article for using masculine language when speaking in general terms, and how is it that you attempt to argue that Jesus was for ordained women clergy? I suggest that you are reading your modern sensibilities into the text.
Are we sensitive to gender matters where they do not necessarily apply? The pronoun ‘he’ and the noun ‘man’ may be used to cover both genders. These are so used in scriptures and people debate and fuss. Check a good Oxford Dictionary and you may find that the general meanings come to the fore before the gender meanings appear in about fourth place! He can mean ‘anyone’.
I hope this helps you to be less offended. All the best.
I don’t know if you’re from a church that has imbibed from liberal commentators, who try their best to find workarounds to apostolic teaching, or you’re like my Pentecostal friends who really have no idea what the Scriptures teach on the matter, but who follow their own desires and whatever their favorite Pentecostal teacher endorses, but…
…although it’s clear that God calls both men and women equal in their justification (Gal.3:28), and although all have been gifted to serve in the body in some capacity, only men are given the role of “teaching and having authority” in the church. Sorry you dislike the divine economy, but that’s something that’s not going to change this side of heaven.
11. The failure to recognize females as clergy. Inclusive language is important on multiple levels, but especially for the Church, where God calls both women and men to the ordained ministry. Feminism has nothing to do with using inclusive language, instead using inclusive language is a sign of respect – a female does not want, nor does she deserve to be referred to as he, and a male clergy does not want, nor deserve to be referred to as she….
Absolutely. Spot on. Being excluded creates a sense of irrelevance. Why engage with an institution which excludes, most especially when It does not mirror Jesus’ inclusivity? What Jesus taught was relevant because it addressed the human soul and bypassed exclusivity and social constructs of the day.
Actually, using inclusive language instead of saying he/his/him is directly related to feminism because it is a new phenomenon. The English language has always placed the masculine form in when using a general reference. It is only with the advent of modern feminism that this has been challenged. In addition, most are not attempting to be exclusive by using masculine terms when writing or speaking in general terms. Furthermore, Jesus is used as a reference for inclusiveness and ordained ministry for women. Admittedly, I am one that struggles with this issue because, although I was raised in a group that promotes such, it is absent from both the NT and Church history. How do you thus justify attacking the writer of this article for using masculine language when speaking in general terms, and how is it that you attempt to argue that Jesus was for ordained women clergy? I suggest that you are reading your modern sensibilities into the text.
11. The failure to recognize females as clergy. Inclusive language is important on multiple levels, but especially for the Church, where God calls both women and men to the ordained ministry. Feminism has nothing to do with using inclusive language, instead using inclusive language is a sign of respect – a female does not want, nor does she deserve to be referred to as he, and a male clergy does not want, nor deserve to be referred to as she….
Absolutely. Spot on. Being excluded creates a sense of irrelevance. Why engage with an institution which excludes, most especially when It does not mirror Jesus’ inclusivity? What Jesus taught was relevant because it addressed the human soul and bypassed exclusivity and social constructs of the day.
Actually, using inclusive language instead of saying he/his/him is directly related to feminism because it is a new phenomenon. The English language has always placed the masculine form in when using a general reference. It is only with the advent of modern feminism that this has been challenged. In addition, most are not attempting to be exclusive by using masculine terms when writing or speaking in general terms. Furthermore, Jesus is used as a reference for inclusiveness and ordained ministry for women. Admittedly, I am one that struggles with this issue because, although I was raised in a group that promotes such, it is absent from both the NT and Church history. How do you thus justify attacking the writer of this article for using masculine language when speaking in general terms, and how is it that you attempt to argue that Jesus was for ordained women clergy? I suggest that you are reading your modern sensibilities into the text.
Are we sensitive to gender matters where they do not necessarily apply? The pronoun ‘he’ and the noun ‘man’ may be used to cover both genders. These are so used in scriptures and people debate and fuss. Check a good Oxford Dictionary and you may find that the general meanings come to the fore before the gender meanings appear in about fourth place! He can mean ‘anyone’.
I hope this helps you to be less offended. All the best.
I don’t know if you’re from a church that has imbibed from liberal commentators, who try their best to find workarounds to apostolic teaching, or you’re like my Pentecostal friends who really have no idea what the Scriptures teach on the matter, but who follow their own desires and whatever their favorite Pentecostal teacher endorses, but…
…although it’s clear that God calls both men and women equal in their justification (Gal.3:28), and although all have been gifted to serve in the body in some capacity, only men are given the role of “teaching and having authority” in the church. Sorry you dislike the divine economy, but that’s something that’s not going to change this side of heaven.
BOOM ! Roasted ! Spot on…as Paul ( paraphrasing ) said, “what the Lord thinks of my words and actions is THE only opinion that matters”…There are upright pastors and I’m for’em…it just seems so hard to stay upright. Being a Christian ain’t all candy-n-nuts…for those that may not my use of the word “ain’t”, that’s ok…cause it ain’t gonna matter 😉
BOOM ! Roasted ! Spot on…as Paul ( paraphrasing ) said, “what the Lord thinks of my words and actions is THE only opinion that matters”…There are upright pastors and I’m for’em…it just seems so hard to stay upright. Being a Christian ain’t all candy-n-nuts…for those that may not my use of the word “ain’t”, that’s ok…cause it ain’t gonna matter 😉
BOOM ! Roasted ! Spot on…as Paul ( paraphrasing ) said, “what the Lord thinks of my words and actions is THE only opinion that matters”…There are upright pastors and I’m for’em…it just seems so hard to stay upright. Being a Christian ain’t all candy-n-nuts…for those that may not my use of the word “ain’t”, that’s ok…cause it ain’t gonna matter 😉
I would add pastors who bring politics into the church. They embrace political parties as being “Christian” and push their followers to support politicians agendas. They see themselves as kingmakers as they focus on Washington D.C. rather than their own congregations. In doing so they drive millions away from church while they weaken politics and faith at the same time.
Additionally, a church whose pastor preaches politics should be paying taxes.
So politics is an exception to the “every thought” in 2 Cor. 10:5? We apply Scripture to “all” areas of life…except politics? And every pastor who applies Scripture to politics should pay taxes? Where is that in Scripture…or are we neither sola scriptura nor tota scriptura anymore?
I would add pastors who bring politics into the church. They embrace political parties as being “Christian” and push their followers to support politicians agendas. They see themselves as kingmakers as they focus on Washington D.C. rather than their own congregations. In doing so they drive millions away from church while they weaken politics and faith at the same time.
Additionally, a church whose pastor preaches politics should be paying taxes.
So politics is an exception to the “every thought” in 2 Cor. 10:5? We apply Scripture to “all” areas of life…except politics? And every pastor who applies Scripture to politics should pay taxes? Where is that in Scripture…or are we neither sola scriptura nor tota scriptura anymore?
In point number 9 he writes “Christianity isn’t a smorgasbord where people get to pick and choose what they like or don’t.” Apparently he somehow forgot that that is why there are tens of thousands of different denominations.
I agree. No one ‘has a corner on God’. We all have needs that are met by God, and we all are Blessed to have them met. Our experiences should not be forced on others, to say, “If your experience is not exactly like mine, it is not authentic”. I wonder what God thinks, when another ”denomination’ is registered?
In point number 9 he writes “Christianity isn’t a smorgasbord where people get to pick and choose what they like or don’t.” Apparently he somehow forgot that that is why there are tens of thousands of different denominations.
I agree. No one ‘has a corner on God’. We all have needs that are met by God, and we all are Blessed to have them met. Our experiences should not be forced on others, to say, “If your experience is not exactly like mine, it is not authentic”. I wonder what God thinks, when another ”denomination’ is registered?
I’m concerned about the continual use of “he” and “his” when referring to the Pastor.
I’m concerned about the continual use of “he” and “his” when referring to the Pastor.
Why? A pastor is supposed to be a man.
Wrong. A pastor is the person called by God to be the teacher & leader of the people, be this person male or female.
PastorMissy, what about the passages that state the qualifications of overseers, pastors, elders, etc.?
I am concerned about “men” and “women” that are concerned about tearing pastors down, enjoying their online rants, and creating a following of “Pastor Judges”, and neither the author nor one of these replies even nearly suggested even a hint of praying for these men or women whom God has placed in these positions.
1Th 5:25
25 Brethren, pray for us.
-Pastors would rather have our prayers…Not our opinions.
Rom 13:1-2
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
-We may want to be careful about what we call “healthy discussion”…we may plant a seed that could grow into rebellion in many churches…thus causing more of a falling away that so deeply concerns us all.
1Sa 26:23 NIV
23 The LORD rewards everyone for their righteousness and faithfulness. The LORD delivered you into my hands today, but I would not lay a hand on the LORD’s anointed.
-Even David knew better…
Pro 17:9 NIV
9 Whoever would foster love covers over an offense, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.
-How can we be sure that our words and discussions will cause a sheep to be torn from their shepherd or church family…Unnecessarily.
Mat 18:15-17 NIV
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
-Jesus commands us to talk to them…not about them. Please pray for these men and women, if we will not talk to them.
God’s Blessing to you all.
These are his concerns. I don’t see where it is a negative thing. I do believe that the truth is the truth and “pastors” should not be offended by one’s concern.
Exactly. Any pastor should welcome questioning and scrutiny, which needs to be done lovingly.
Romans 13:6—clarifies, that the author of Romans is talking about the authority of the government, not the authority of the pastors/churches etc. Christians cannot make their own laws, for instance, about how to drive, or how to pay taxes. Paul didn’t want the Christians of his day, to live apart from the people they were trying to convert. This chapter is often misused by pastors who want authority.
Well said, A Pastor. I think that people fear bringing a disagreement to any single person anymore. It is easier to send it out into the internet and hope that somehow it comes back to teach the person a lesson rather than being personal, specific, and adhering to the Word of God. I have often considered almost every one of the 10 listed issues (though I will say that #8 not only requires a lot more explanation, but some scriptural support as well before I’ll say Amen to it) I don’t think an article of this nature should be opened up to the public like some fire-and-forget missile that can do damage that can’t be calculated when launched.
I am concerned about “men” and “women” that are concerned about tearing pastors down, enjoying their online rants, and creating a following of “Pastor Judges”, and neither the author nor one of these replies even nearly suggested even a hint of praying for these men or women whom God has placed in these positions.
1Th 5:25
25 Brethren, pray for us.
-Pastors would rather have our prayers…Not our opinions.
Rom 13:1-2
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
-We may want to be careful about what we call “healthy discussion”…we may plant a seed that could grow into rebellion in many churches…thus causing more of a falling away that so deeply concerns us all.
1Sa 26:23 NIV
23 The LORD rewards everyone for their righteousness and faithfulness. The LORD delivered you into my hands today, but I would not lay a hand on the LORD’s anointed.
-Even David knew better…
Pro 17:9 NIV
9 Whoever would foster love covers over an offense, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.
-How can we be sure that our words and discussions will cause a sheep to be torn from their shepherd or church family…Unnecessarily.
Mat 18:15-17 NIV
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
-Jesus commands us to talk to them…not about them. Please pray for these men and women, if we will not talk to them.
God’s Blessing to you all.
Romans 13 has nothing to do with church leadership. It’s explicitly about legal government
Thank you for your comment, but what happened to Miriam when she spoke against Moses whom God had called to Shepherd over the nation of Israel in Numbers 12?
Miriam and Moses were in the Old Testament, which was the Old Covenant. We are under the New Covenant. Brendan is correct.
Bethany – What from the OT is useful if the new covenant wipes out all of the OT? Just curious.
God spoke directly to Moses and Miriam opposed that. We’re not under the Mosaic law from the OT but we are to follow Christ’s commands in the NT. Christ fulfilled the law and we are now under grace. However, some of Christ’s commands in the NT are even stricter than the law. Numbers 12 doesn’t mean that we should not question what a pastor teaches, but we need to be like the Bereans in Acts 17, searching the Scriptures ourselves and not just blindly accepting what a pastor says.
Bethany, just to be clear, the “scriptures” that the Bereans searched were from the Old Testament.
Actually, it’s not, exactly. Here’s a great analysis of the pertinent passages. Earthly institutions are composed of wicked, sinful men who are at war with God. Governments are not approved by God but rather recognized for what they are. As Christians, we’re basically to put up with them, to an extent, though the Bible does not proscribe changing them. Frankly, I see anarcho-capitalism far more consistent with Christ’s teaching than anything else.
http://www.biblepages.net/iv02.htm
The mandate God has given His Church comprises true worship of God, being witnesses/ sharers of the Word, and being disciple makers – loving and caring in the body of Christ.
Would “A Pastor” agree with this?
The 10 concerns run contrary to the mandate and are therefore valid concerns. They are very relevant for consideration and for appropriate responses that will effect change. Espousing them as Scott Postma has, provides an avenue especially for pastors to become aware of issues that need to be addressed. Scott postma cannot go to every pastor in person, he goes to them by this medium. It could be considered a way of ‘intreating’ the elder as a father’ though he is ‘an elder’ or leader himself (1 Tim. 5:1). How we respond to the concerns is what will make the difference.
True, some may use it to bash pastors (and Scott declared initially that he may not have it all together) but responses show that people genuinely search for churches that are carrying out the mandate God gives us. They are not satisfied with the current state of affairs in the church.they are searching for the place where the mandate is being carried out.
God is seeking the church where his mandate ids being carried out. We need to get back to that place.
I pray God will help us so to do.
These are his concerns. I don’t see where it is a negative thing. I do believe that the truth is the truth and “pastors” should not be offended by one’s concern.
Exactly. Any pastor should welcome questioning and scrutiny, which needs to be done lovingly.
Romans 13:6—clarifies, that the author of Romans is talking about the authority of the government, not the authority of the pastors/churches etc. Christians cannot make their own laws, for instance, about how to drive, or how to pay taxes. Paul didn’t want the Christians of his day, to live apart from the people they were trying to convert. This chapter is often misused by pastors who want authority.
This post doesn’t put pastors down. It actually gives insight about real issues churches are increasingly facing today. We can’t be afraid to hear ugly truths concerning the church. Instead of considering them yo be slanderous, let’s pray for the answers individually and collectively. God bless!
Well said, A Pastor. I think that people fear bringing a disagreement to any single person anymore. It is easier to send it out into the internet and hope that somehow it comes back to teach the person a lesson rather than being personal, specific, and adhering to the Word of God. I have often considered almost every one of the 10 listed issues (though I will say that #8 not only requires a lot more explanation, but some scriptural support as well before I’ll say Amen to it) I don’t think an article of this nature should be opened up to the public like some fire-and-forget missile that can do damage that can’t be calculated when launched.
This post was about pastors. After reading the comments I was surprised that many choose to judge the post instead of think about the content. We all know that pastors aren’t to blame for every problem in the church. We are the church, so if there is a problem, then we need to seek God for an answer and listen when He sends one. All of us. I am not just a church goer. I truly want to be changed by God to conform to His image. The message of this post is a valid one even if it seems to some to be critical. If I am missing the mark God has set for me, please love me enough to be critical. I need to change and I pray for a heart to accept any change God in line with His holy Word would like to make.
This post was about pastors. After reading the comments I was surprised that many choose to judge the post instead of think about the content. We all know that pastors aren’t to blame for every problem in the church. We are the church, so if there is a problem, then we need to seek God for an answer and listen when He sends one. All of us. I am not just a church goer. I truly want to be changed by God to conform to His image. The message of this post is a valid one even if it seems to some to be critical. If I am missing the mark God has set for me, please love me enough to be critical. I need to change and I pray for a heart to accept any change God in line with His holy Word would like to make.
This post was about pastors. After reading the comments I was surprised that many choose to judge the post instead of think about the content. We all know that pastors aren’t to blame for every problem in the church. We are the church, so if there is a problem, then we need to seek God for an answer and listen when He sends one. All of us. I am not just a church goer. I truly want to be changed by God to conform to His image. The message of this post is a valid one even if it seems to some to be critical. If I am missing the mark God has set for me, please love me enough to be critical. I need to change and I pray for a heart to accept any change God in line with His holy Word would like to make.
The article is good. If we judged ourselves we will not be judge. 1 Corinthians11:31. The church need this article, because most of its leaders are far from the cause of the church which is the great commission not big cathedrals.
The article is good. If we judged ourselves we will not be judge. 1 Corinthians11:31. The church need this article, because most of its leaders are far from the cause of the church which is the great commission not big cathedrals.
Very thoughtful article and one that even those of us who are not pastors should take to heart. My one concern, however, is the part about literacy. I agree about not cherry picking verses, and there are passages we know to be parables–stories used to teach rather than actual events. But, overall, are you saying we should not take the miracles and events laid out in the Bible literally? In that case, how do you pick and choose what is “literal” and what is “literature?” I need clarification, please.
Very thoughtful article and one that even those of us who are not pastors should take to heart. My one concern, however, is the part about literacy. I agree about not cherry picking verses, and there are passages we know to be parables–stories used to teach rather than actual events. But, overall, are you saying we should not take the miracles and events laid out in the Bible literally? In that case, how do you pick and choose what is “literal” and what is “literature?” I need clarification, please.
I was actually going to say I think this is the biggest problem. What is meant here is that some pastors don’t “study” the Bible, they just “read” the Bible as they see it. Some don’t even know how the Bible is made because they’re too afraid to study it. You have to study the translations, culture of their time; many aspects into what was written to get a better understanding of what was meant. There really is no verse you should use, especially to condemn someone, without study all of these things; you can’t just read it plain English and know what it meant. It’s funny because during “Bible study,” there are still so many churches that think just reading the Bible is considered studying the Bible. That’s just reading it.
These type of pastors typically “Bible bash,” they use the Bible literally out of context to tell people what is right and wrong. This hits home for me because my old pastor pushed me away from the church because I read deeper into Bible meanings. He basically told me I was going to hell because of the way I thought. He even deleted me off Facebook when he used to be one of my best friends. I have gone to realize, many of my 20 something year old friends are experiencing the same thing. Even though we haven’t been around each other, I see it happening that our pastor is pushing them away, telling them that they think wrong. He accuses us of not believing the Bible is the word of God because we simply try to study the verses actual meaning instead of reading it black and white.
It’s not just my old pastor either. I’ve tried many new churches and I can pretty much tell right away if the pastor “studies” the Bible or “reads” the Bible. When all I want to do is just love people. I believe we are here on this earth to learn to love. I believe that is what God meant as his ultimate purpose. It’s so hard to find a church that I can tell that the pastor studies the Bible.
I hope you understand where I’m coming from because many people that don’t study the Bible, don’t listen when I say this.
God Bless
Good comments. Pastors would be out of a job, if it were not for the folks in the pews. Sheep are to be loved, and encouraged. Small churches make converts, and often ‘loose’ their converts to larger groups, with more going on. I have seen this often. I thank God for the small, closely knit congregations.
I agree with you that the greatest command is to love others, yet that does not encompass the entirety of our mission as the body of Christ. The truth is that it may be your personal ministry, because loving people does not always lead to “fruit,” which for us would be disciples. As believers and members of the body of Christ, we should definitely be more loving and a lot less judgmental than we are now. Fully agreed.
The Bible is written to be read on several different levels, the same way the parables were to be taken. If you take the Bible at surface level…you have simply read it for plot and context, but it requires the Holy Spirit to interpret and reveal the Truth and depth of the Word…preachers must preach from the “deep places” of the Word, not simply give a book report of what any of us could have read on the surface of the text, which is exactly what Jess was referring to.
The Infinite Lightforce Wisdom of the Word of God in the Holy Spirit is revealed by Christ Jesus and is exposed because of darkness. A well calculated post to expose the truth. Absent of any evil intentions to demean women, the pronoun “he” used was correct in representing either male/female. After all women, came from men 🙂 Ladies becareful that the men don’t take back their rib in the flesh.
In sum, “Verity of truth is truly and is indeed that which always reveals itself like forgotten planted seeds in ways challenging to the collective understanding of humanity.” –Ed C J
As revealed…
Shalom in Yeshua the Messiah, Lord in Spirit and in Truth
Very legitimate concerns which all committed Christians should seriously consider. One modest suggestion: for #8, I’d suggest “literalistically instead of literally.” A literal reading of Scripture will account for genre and context, as I’ve noted in my book, “An Introduction to Bibliology: What Every Christian Should Know…”
I agree with Mr. Breshears modest tweak of number 8. The post is a timely one. Thank you!
The Infinite Lightforce Wisdom of the Word of God in the Holy Spirit is revealed by Christ Jesus and is exposed because of darkness. A well calculated post to expose the truth. Absent of any evil intentions to demean women, the pronoun “he” used was correct in representing either male/female. After all women, came from men 🙂 Ladies becareful that the men don’t take back their rib in the flesh.
In sum, “Verity of truth is truly and is indeed that which always reveals itself like forgotten planted seeds in ways challenging to the collective understanding of humanity.” –Ed C J
As revealed…
Shalom in Yeshua the Messiah, Lord in Spirit and in Truth
Very legitimate concerns which all committed Christians should seriously consider. One modest suggestion: for #8, I’d suggest “literalistically instead of literally.” A literal reading of Scripture will account for genre and context, as I’ve noted in my book, “An Introduction to Bibliology: What Every Christian Should Know…”
I agree with Mr. Breshears modest tweak of number 8. The post is a timely one. Thank you!
At North Decatur Presbyterian Church recently, the pastor said: The end of church is not church. It’s a loving community
At North Decatur Presbyterian Church recently, the pastor said: The end of church is not church. It’s a loving community
I am concerned about the churches that are still teaching the taught, reaching the reached, and preaching to the preached. Instead of “going ye therefore” and reaching the lost souls.
I am concerned about the churches that are still teaching the taught, reaching the reached, and preaching to the preached. Instead of “going ye therefore” and reaching the lost souls.
I am concerned about the churches that are still teaching the taught, reaching the reached, and preaching to the preached. Instead of “going ye therefore” and reaching the lost souls.
Loved this post! Christians have many gifts (1Cor12, Rom12, Eph4), but many of us through ignorance and/or apathy give pastors the burden of doing everything in and for the church, criticize them for disappointing outcomes, while doing nothing to help the mission or the unity of the church. That said, each Christian must repent, do one’s part, pray for each other, especially pastors, and tell the truth in LOVE, not being contentious or slanderous.
“(God) saying, “Touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm!” Ps105.15
“Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.” Heb13.7
I think John5.39-40 and Luke24.25-27, and John20.30-31 speak definitively to the literal nature of Scripture as well as its purpose.
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” John5.39-40
“And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” Luke24.25-27
“Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” John20.30-31
Peace!
Loved this post! Christians have many gifts (1Cor12, Rom12, Eph4), but many of us through ignorance and/or apathy give pastors the burden of doing everything in and for the church, criticize them for disappointing outcomes, while doing nothing to help the mission or the unity of the church. That said, each Christian must repent, do one’s part, pray for each other, especially pastors, and tell the truth in LOVE, not being contentious or slanderous.
“(God) saying, “Touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm!” Ps105.15
“Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.” Heb13.7
I think John5.39-40 and Luke24.25-27, and John20.30-31 speak definitively to the literal nature of Scripture as well as its purpose.
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” John5.39-40
“And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” Luke24.25-27
“Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” John20.30-31
Peace!
Loved this post! Christians have many gifts (1Cor12, Rom12, Eph4), but many of us through ignorance and/or apathy give pastors the burden of doing everything in and for the church, criticize them for disappointing outcomes, while doing nothing to help the mission or the unity of the church. That said, each Christian must repent, do one’s part, pray for each other, especially pastors, and tell the truth in LOVE, not being contentious or slanderous.
“(God) saying, “Touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm!” Ps105.15
“Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.” Heb13.7
I think John5.39-40 and Luke24.25-27, and John20.30-31 speak definitively to the literal nature of Scripture as well as its purpose.
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” John5.39-40
“And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” Luke24.25-27
“Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” John20.30-31
Peace!
Really was encouraged by these observations and how you made them relevant and cogent to today. I particularly appreciated your reference to “communitas”.
I don’t know what it means. Is it latin or spanish? Is it there to include the reader or exclude? You could create a link so the illiterate like me can still join in. Thanks for the thoughtful post.
Lisa, communitas is a Latin noun that, in essence, refers to the spirit of community. It is a term in church life that refers to the transformation that occurs that gels the community through their shared liminality and common mission. e.g. the early disciples who followed Jesus.
Really was encouraged by these observations and how you made them relevant and cogent to today. I particularly appreciated your reference to “communitas”.
Really was encouraged by these observations and how you made them relevant and cogent to today. I particularly appreciated your reference to “communitas”.
I don’t know what it means. Is it latin or spanish? Is it there to include the reader or exclude? You could create a link so the illiterate like me can still join in. Thanks for the thoughtful post.
Lisa, communitas is a Latin noun that, in essence, refers to the spirit of community. It is a term in church life that refers to the transformation that occurs that gels the community through their shared liminality and common mission. e.g. the early disciples who followed Jesus.
Scott I’m so glad you post this. It is in the back of the mind of most believers who are looking for authentic leaders. In my opinion pastors should focus on doing God’s work and let the church handle the financial side of things in that way they can be blameless. I find many pastors afraid of operating in the faith that they ask their congregation to operate in.
We just left a church where the Pastor did all ten of these things. In fact I was on staff and when I kept questioning whether this is what a church (pastor) should do and be about (money, greed, fame) I was told if I can’t follow him (the pastor) then I (and my family) should just be quiet an leave. Sadly, these types of pastors are manipulative and have the congregations believing that what they are doing is what “God” has told them to do. The people follow them like sheep, not realizing that their leader will sacrifice them before he will ever sacrifice himself. Thank you for the post, I could not have articulated this truth as well.
We just left a church where the Pastor did all ten of these things. In fact I was on staff and when I kept questioning whether this is what a church (pastor) should do and be about (money, greed, fame) I was told if I can’t follow him (the pastor) then I (and my family) should just be quiet an leave. Sadly, these types of pastors are manipulative and have the congregations believing that what they are doing is what “God” has told them to do. The people follow them like sheep, not realizing that their leader will sacrifice them before he will ever sacrifice himself. Thank you for the post, I could not have articulated this truth as well.
We just left a church where the Pastor did all ten of these things. In fact I was on staff and when I kept questioning whether this is what a church (pastor) should do and be about (money, greed, fame) I was told if I can’t follow him (the pastor) then I (and my family) should just be quiet an leave. Sadly, these types of pastors are manipulative and have the congregations believing that what they are doing is what “God” has told them to do. The people follow them like sheep, not realizing that their leader will sacrifice them before he will ever sacrifice himself. Thank you for the post, I could not have articulated this truth as well.
An extremely thoughtful post. This makes me appreciate the ministry of our pastoral staff even more! They are people of integrity who follow hard after God and continually encourage the congregation to do the same. We’re challenged without being bludgeoned and encouraged without being pandered to. In my early years I was part a church that taught almost nothing from Scripture and later, part of a very unhealthy and controlling church with a pastor who used and literally abused members of the congregation. So I’ve seen a few sides of this issue and agree with your views.
An extremely thoughtful post. This makes me appreciate the ministry of our pastoral staff even more! They are people of integrity who follow hard after God and continually encourage the congregation to do the same. We’re challenged without being bludgeoned and encouraged without being pandered to. In my early years I was part a church that taught almost nothing from Scripture and later, part of a very unhealthy and controlling church with a pastor who used and literally abused members of the congregation. So I’ve seen a few sides of this issue and agree with your views.
Jesus says that God is Spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. We may be Biblical scholars, but if we are not filled with the Holy Spirit, all that we do will come out as self-serving. Truth is, we, as members of the Body of Christ, should study the Word for ourselves. When we know the Word for ourselves, we will not be misled by those who are deceived by their own devilishly selfish agendas. Let’s note that after Jesus had been resurrected, on one occasion He revealed Himself to His disciples. There He instructed Peter to “Feed My sheep.” Jesus asked Peter to do this feeding of His sheep three times. Jesus never suggested to Peter that Peter leads His sheep, but only that Peter feeds His sheep. The reason Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep was because Jesus knew that once the sheep were fed the Word of God, the Word would LEAD them. We should not look for pastors to lead us, the sheep. When we accept Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Truth of God’s Word will do the leading. Jesus never relinquished His Role as the Good Shepherd. Pastors just need to be mindful of what the Word says in 2nd Peter 5: 2- 3; “Feed the flock of God, which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being examples to the flock.” The Word of God is invincible, and no matter what man does, the Word will fulfill all that God, our Father in heaven, sent Him to do. There is nothing but fruitful sustenance in the Word of God, and the church will not stand before Christ in an anorexic state. But, what will happen is… when the church is taken out, the world will be void of true believers, and all hell shall break loose because of the wrath of God. Those who are left here are unbelievers and the lukewarm members who have been fed by worldly, lukewarm pastors. These pastors will have to stand before those once lukewarm, but now angry members who want to know, literally, what in hell is going on. What is actually happening with the pastors in the church today is that they, themselves, are void of the Power of the Hold Spirit, and as such, they have no boldness to stand upon the Word of God whereby they may be able to thwart the wiles of the devil. All i can say to those lukewarm pastors is… one day God shall spew you out of His mouth. Shame on you! Get right church, and let’s go home… through the Righteousness sake of Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Jesus says that God is Spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. We may be Biblical scholars, but if we are not filled with the Holy Spirit, all that we do will come out as self-serving. Truth is, we, as members of the Body of Christ, should study the Word for ourselves. When we know the Word for ourselves, we will not be misled by those who are deceived by their own devilishly selfish agendas. Let’s note that after Jesus had been resurrected, on one occasion He revealed Himself to His disciples. There He instructed Peter to “Feed My sheep.” Jesus asked Peter to do this feeding of His sheep three times. Jesus never suggested to Peter that Peter leads His sheep, but only that Peter feeds His sheep. The reason Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep was because Jesus knew that once the sheep were fed the Word of God, the Word would LEAD them. We should not look for pastors to lead us, the sheep. When we accept Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Truth of God’s Word will do the leading. Jesus never relinquished His Role as the Good Shepherd. Pastors just need to be mindful of what the Word says in 2nd Peter 5: 2- 3; “Feed the flock of God, which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being examples to the flock.” The Word of God is invincible, and no matter what man does, the Word will fulfill all that God, our Father in heaven, sent Him to do. There is nothing but fruitful sustenance in the Word of God, and the church will not stand before Christ in an anorexic state. But, what will happen is… when the church is taken out, the world will be void of true believers, and all hell shall break loose because of the wrath of God. Those who are left here are unbelievers and the lukewarm members who have been fed by worldly, lukewarm pastors. These pastors will have to stand before those once lukewarm, but now angry members who want to know, literally, what in hell is going on. What is actually happening with the pastors in the church today is that they, themselves, are void of the Power of the Hold Spirit, and as such, they have no boldness to stand upon the Word of God whereby they may be able to thwart the wiles of the devil. All i can say to those lukewarm pastors is… one day God shall spew you out of His mouth. Shame on you! Get right church, and let’s go home… through the Righteousness sake of Jesus Christ, our Lord.
And what does the word of God say? The LORD spoke his word to me, saying: “Human, prophesy against the leaders of Israel, who are like shepherds. Prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: How terrible it will be for the shepherds of Israel who feed only themselves! Why don’t the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the milk curds, and you clothe yourselves with the wool. You kill the fat sheep, but you do not feed the flock. You have not made the weak strong. You have not healed the sick or put bandages on those that were hurt. You have not brought back those who strayed away or searched for the lost. But you have ruled the sheep with cruel force. The sheep were scattered, because there was no shepherd, and they became food for every wild animal. My flock wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered all over the face of the earth, and no one searched or looked for them. “ ‘So, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD. This is what the Lord GOD says: As surely as I live, my flock has been caught and eaten by all the wild animals, because the flock has no shepherd. The shepherds did not search for my flock. No, they fed themselves instead of my flock. So, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD. This is what the Lord GOD says: I am against the shepherds. I will blame them for what has happened to my sheep and will not let them tend the flock anymore. Then the shepherds will stop feeding themselves, and I will take my flock from their mouths so they will no longer be their food. (Ezekiel 34:1-10 NCV) In Ezekiel 34 God is not pleased with the shepherds for good reason. We see shepherds conducting themselves selfishly. Help us all.
And what does the word of God say? The LORD spoke his word to me, saying: “Human, prophesy against the leaders of Israel, who are like shepherds. Prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: How terrible it will be for the shepherds of Israel who feed only themselves! Why don’t the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the milk curds, and you clothe yourselves with the wool. You kill the fat sheep, but you do not feed the flock. You have not made the weak strong. You have not healed the sick or put bandages on those that were hurt. You have not brought back those who strayed away or searched for the lost. But you have ruled the sheep with cruel force. The sheep were scattered, because there was no shepherd, and they became food for every wild animal. My flock wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered all over the face of the earth, and no one searched or looked for them. “ ‘So, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD. This is what the Lord GOD says: As surely as I live, my flock has been caught and eaten by all the wild animals, because the flock has no shepherd. The shepherds did not search for my flock. No, they fed themselves instead of my flock. So, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD. This is what the Lord GOD says: I am against the shepherds. I will blame them for what has happened to my sheep and will not let them tend the flock anymore. Then the shepherds will stop feeding themselves, and I will take my flock from their mouths so they will no longer be their food. (Ezekiel 34:1-10 NCV) In Ezekiel 34 God is not pleased with the shepherds for good reason. We see shepherds conducting themselves selfishly. Help us all.
I am concerned about pastors who put their denominational traditions above the true meaning of Scripture – the Bible – and call it truth.
I am concerned about pastors who put their denominational traditions above the true meaning of Scripture – the Bible – and call it truth.
I am concerned about pastors who put their denominational traditions above the true meaning of Scripture – the Bible – and call it truth.
I wish we could use a different word for the ‘building’ believers meet in and the actually believers of Jesus Christ, both being called ‘Church’. I find this as a confusion factor to many Christians. Since people are the church, it is important that we make clear the difference between a pastor that is building ‘The Church’ or ‘a church’. My experience has been that too many men are doing the same thing in the Body of Christ that they would do in the world of business. Building bigger buildings by controlling and manipulating and condemning The Church into an earthly, materialistic view of ministry. I agree with this article, just wish this term was more clearly defined. A recent article I read estimated that 16-20 million Christians have left the building known as the church. They have not left their faith in Jesus, just fed up with the system. You hit on key issues that could be the heart of this phenomenon.
I wish we could use a different word for the ‘building’ believers meet in and the actually believers of Jesus Christ, both being called ‘Church’. I find this as a confusion factor to many Christians. Since people are the church, it is important that we make clear the difference between a pastor that is building ‘The Church’ or ‘a church’. My experience has been that too many men are doing the same thing in the Body of Christ that they would do in the world of business. Building bigger buildings by controlling and manipulating and condemning The Church into an earthly, materialistic view of ministry. I agree with this article, just wish this term was more clearly defined. A recent article I read estimated that 16-20 million Christians have left the building known as the church. They have not left their faith in Jesus, just fed up with the system. You hit on key issues that could be the heart of this phenomenon.
I am concerned about the pastor who is a motivational speaker.
I am concerned about the pastor who is a motivational speaker.
I think these are important observations, but I am afraid you are mistaken when you think that personal disciple making is more important than organizational leadership when it comes to church growth and health. Churches are failing because they lack leaders with the ability to identify, train, and release more leaders. I meet pastors everyday who can make disciples, heck, any Christian can do that. But when the disciple making is not focused on developing leaders, the efforts of the discipler are not multiplied. As a result your sphere of influence is too small, you can’t generate enough donations to work full-time, thus reducing your impact even more as it forces you to become bi-vocational and have less time to disciple. A little bit of strategy could go a long ways toward getting churches back on track.
Study after study show leadership training doesn’t work.
http://www.churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/161305-Why-Leadership-Training-Doesn’t-Work.html
I think these are important observations, but I am afraid you are mistaken when you think that personal disciple making is more important than organizational leadership when it comes to church growth and health. Churches are failing because they lack leaders with the ability to identify, train, and release more leaders. I meet pastors everyday who can make disciples, heck, any Christian can do that. But when the disciple making is not focused on developing leaders, the efforts of the discipler are not multiplied. As a result your sphere of influence is too small, you can’t generate enough donations to work full-time, thus reducing your impact even more as it forces you to become bi-vocational and have less time to disciple. A little bit of strategy could go a long ways toward getting churches back on track.
Stephen, are we growing people, or growing a business? I’m not trying to be nasty. Just wondering…
Study after study show leadership training doesn’t work.
http://www.churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/161305-Why-Leadership-Training-Doesn’t-Work.html
I am concerned about pastors that feel like they are on an Island all alone. When the “sin” they feel they have no one to go to because they are in fear of loosing their job. That pastor in essence, was me.
I am concerned about pastors that feel like they are on an Island all alone. When the “sin” they feel they have no one to go to because they are in fear of loosing their job. That pastor in essence, was me.
As a Southern Baptist, I see this behavior in the mega-churches. When it comes down to conventions, they boast about numbers when they do not realize they are exposing that they are not about shaping relationships within the church. One such mega-church pastor claimed to have known only 5 percent of his congregation, has been interviewed by Kirk Cameron, and guides his church to give to a local foster group home. The foster group home is actually a part of a million-dollar corporation and could fund itself if it wanted to. Not to mention, with only knowing 5 percent, the accountability is destitute. He fit the bill of the first four statements in this article. I found out that their donations, which also go to the foster kid’s allowance, had been used for purchasing marijuana. My son, who was taken from me and placed at this foster group home, is now addicted to marijuana has been in substance abuse counseling for over 2 years. I was exonerated from the charges this year, which means it was unnecessary to take my son from me, yet this pastor has contributed to my son’s delinquency and no one holds him accountable. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this turns a lack of accountability and caring for the church into false prophecy as he has allowed money in the name of Christ to be used for developing sinful behaviors. Please pray for my son and our family.
As a Southern Baptist, I see this behavior in the mega-churches. When it comes down to conventions, they boast about numbers when they do not realize they are exposing that they are not about shaping relationships within the church. One such mega-church pastor claimed to have known only 5 percent of his congregation, has been interviewed by Kirk Cameron, and guides his church to give to a local foster group home. The foster group home is actually a part of a million-dollar corporation and could fund itself if it wanted to. Not to mention, with only knowing 5 percent, the accountability is destitute. He fit the bill of the first four statements in this article. I found out that their donations, which also go to the foster kid’s allowance, had been used for purchasing marijuana. My son, who was taken from me and placed at this foster group home, is now addicted to marijuana has been in substance abuse counseling for over 2 years. I was exonerated from the charges this year, which means it was unnecessary to take my son from me, yet this pastor has contributed to my son’s delinquency and no one holds him accountable. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this turns a lack of accountability and caring for the church into false prophecy as he has allowed money in the name of Christ to be used for developing sinful behaviors. Please pray for my son and our family.
As a Southern Baptist, I see this behavior in the mega-churches. When it comes down to conventions, they boast about numbers when they do not realize they are exposing that they are not about shaping relationships within the church. One such mega-church pastor claimed to have known only 5 percent of his congregation, has been interviewed by Kirk Cameron, and guides his church to give to a local foster group home. The foster group home is actually a part of a million-dollar corporation and could fund itself if it wanted to. Not to mention, with only knowing 5 percent, the accountability is destitute. He fit the bill of the first four statements in this article. I found out that their donations, which also go to the foster kid’s allowance, had been used for purchasing marijuana. My son, who was taken from me and placed at this foster group home, is now addicted to marijuana has been in substance abuse counseling for over 2 years. I was exonerated from the charges this year, which means it was unnecessary to take my son from me, yet this pastor has contributed to my son’s delinquency and no one holds him accountable. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this turns a lack of accountability and caring for the church into false prophecy as he has allowed money in the name of Christ to be used for developing sinful behaviors. Please pray for my son and our family.
I am concerned with the amount of people who are judging others…doesn’t the world do it enough. We should be loving and encouraging our pastors and making their jobs easier! Don’t get me wrong, we are to challenge and hold them accountable, but people bitch so much about how pastors do this wrong, pastors do that wrong…when was the last time YOU went down the street and led someone to Christ? When was the last time YOU went and fed the homeless? When was the last time YOU prayed for someone and saw them healed? When was the last time YOU got so little sleep because you had been weeping and praying for your city? When was the last time YOU decided to act instead of speak? To change what you don’t like, instead of judge? Jesus called the pharasies white washed stones…maybe we need to stop being like them and start loving…and accepting our pastors are not perfect but they are trying to do their best. We need unity, not for the hand to be breaking the other arm or for the foot to be stomping on one another…
Just some food for thought.
Easy to see by your comments that you do not have much of a relationship with God, nor do you understand the Bible, God’s Holy words to us.
To understand the bible one must read it passionately with prayer and meditation.
We are called to discern the spirits and many pastors have a poor spiritual life.
My own pastor fits many of those above comments and yet I love Him like my own Brother.
He is currently doing things in the flesh to try and boost church attendance and it is difficult to watch. I have warned him about it so when He falls, I will be there to catch Him because I love Him.
I see what a lot of so called new wave worship is like and most of it seems phoney to me. The reason I say that is because of the watered down Gospel message I hear coming from so many so called pastors today.
The Bible must be read and divided word by word line by line and meditated upon to actually understand God’s heart.
Topical messages based upon life happenings using selected words from the bible create sermonets that create christianets.
Biblical illiteracy is a huge problem in America today and it affects the pastors as well. I hear so many pastors including the famous ones that have a poor theoligical understanding of God.
God wants a relationship, not 5 thousand people waving their arms one TV.
Pastor Postma got it right in his understanding of what is happening. The next great event will be the rapture, Are you ready?
Spot on, Michael!
I am concerned with the amount of people who are judging others…doesn’t the world do it enough. We should be loving and encouraging our pastors and making their jobs easier! Don’t get me wrong, we are to challenge and hold them accountable, but people bitch so much about how pastors do this wrong, pastors do that wrong…when was the last time YOU went down the street and led someone to Christ? When was the last time YOU went and fed the homeless? When was the last time YOU prayed for someone and saw them healed? When was the last time YOU got so little sleep because you had been weeping and praying for your city? When was the last time YOU decided to act instead of speak? To change what you don’t like, instead of judge? Jesus called the pharasies white washed stones…maybe we need to stop being like them and start loving…and accepting our pastors are not perfect but they are trying to do their best. We need unity, not for the hand to be breaking the other arm or for the foot to be stomping on one another…
Just some food for thought.
Easy to see by your comments that you do not have much of a relationship with God, nor do you understand the Bible, God’s Holy words to us.
To understand the bible one must read it passionately with prayer and meditation.
We are called to discern the spirits and many pastors have a poor spiritual life.
My own pastor fits many of those above comments and yet I love Him like my own Brother.
He is currently doing things in the flesh to try and boost church attendance and it is difficult to watch. I have warned him about it so when He falls, I will be there to catch Him because I love Him.
I see what a lot of so called new wave worship is like and most of it seems phoney to me. The reason I say that is because of the watered down Gospel message I hear coming from so many so called pastors today.
The Bible must be read and divided word by word line by line and meditated upon to actually understand God’s heart.
Topical messages based upon life happenings using selected words from the bible create sermonets that create christianets.
Biblical illiteracy is a huge problem in America today and it affects the pastors as well. I hear so many pastors including the famous ones that have a poor theoligical understanding of God.
God wants a relationship, not 5 thousand people waving their arms one TV.
Pastor Postma got it right in his understanding of what is happening. The next great event will be the rapture, Are you ready?
Spot on, Michael!
Please be loving and humble in your exchanges with others. Because you disagree with them does not mean they don’t have a relationship with God. You don’t have all the answers – and maybe you understand this, but your post reads as if it is coming from someone who thinks he has all the answers and the corner on what God wants. Peace be with you.
Look how a good Christian used his mouth and words!
It’s not judgment, it’s insight and teaching. The prophet Jeremiah delivered God’s word for fifty years without a single convert. There were those who thought he was “judging” too.
To suggest that problems within the Church are solely caused by these type of Pastors is a little misleading. Congregation members encourage these styles of ministry by attendance and financial support. Mega-churches and “Rock-star” Pastors need lots of money and lots of people for growth and all the extras which come with stardom and fame. …… and it appears they are successful because of the support. Today’s church is changing to accommodate the next generation of believers, who want the concert styled services. Imagine congregations from a century ago attending a service in the nineties , with women not wearing hats, and wearing jeans, short skirts and blouses; they would be outraged. Similarly, the modern church is simply embracing a culture different from a decade or so ago. The points you make are valid, but my point is, it’s not always the Pastors…..
“The Church” was not intended to “Embrace the culture” as you stated, it is intended to embrace The Savior. This is where and how so get off track.
To suggest that problems within the Church are solely caused by these type of Pastors is a little misleading. Congregation members encourage these styles of ministry by attendance and financial support. Mega-churches and “Rock-star” Pastors need lots of money and lots of people for growth and all the extras which come with stardom and fame. …… and it appears they are successful because of the support. Today’s church is changing to accommodate the next generation of believers, who want the concert styled services. Imagine congregations from a century ago attending a service in the nineties , with women not wearing hats, and wearing jeans, short skirts and blouses; they would be outraged. Similarly, the modern church is simply embracing a culture different from a decade or so ago. The points you make are valid, but my point is, it’s not always the Pastors…..
“The Church” was not intended to “Embrace the culture” as you stated, it is intended to embrace The Savior. This is where and how so get off track.
oops… so many
Martin, you’re right in the sense that church problems are not all caused by these ‘types’ of pastors. Pastors and parishioners are both human, which will always lead to problems. Though Ephesians 6 makes it clear that our battle is not against people.
Still, Trevor hit the nail on the head with his reply. It’s one thing to tweak how we ‘do’ church in order to connect more readily with those who are need of what the church is designed to provide, but it’s way too easy for a church to slide down the slippery slope and reverse the importance of the medium and the message.
It’s interesting that I came across this in October, which we recognize as ‘minister/pastor appreciation month.’ As believers, it is important for us to lift up our pastors and support them. We can do that in a thousand ways, big and small. From attending to serving…church isn’t a cafeteria; we are not called to go there to get what we want – but to get what we need, and then share it with others. Our pastors’ sole responsibility should be to equip us to do so.
I’m glad Scott didn’t ‘name names’, because it would’ve been easy to do so. What’s more important is being aware of how the enemy is attacking our churches and for us – and our pastors – to make sure we put on the full armor of God to defend ourselves.
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I am not a pastor, I am a minister. Two of the most important things that I have learned are: 1) We must be careful not to judge others, 2) being a pastor is probably the most difficult job there is.
The reasons 1) We do not know where people will go or who they will become in their lives. A drug user today could be responsible for leading hundreds to Christ tomorrow. 2) A pastor must be fully committed to his/her job. This means emotionally, spiritually, and mentally. Many jobs are difficult but usually do not require a full commitment like the job of pastor. Now pastors need to be held accountable, but they also need to have great support.
I am not a pastor, I am a minister. Two of the most important things that I have learned are: 1) We must be careful not to judge others, 2) being a pastor is probably the most difficult job there is.
The reasons 1) We do not know where people will go or who they will become in their lives. A drug user today could be responsible for leading hundreds to Christ tomorrow. 2) A pastor must be fully committed to his/her job. This means emotionally, spiritually, and mentally. Many jobs are difficult but usually do not require a full commitment like the job of pastor. Now pastors need to be held accountable, but they also need to have great support.
Do not judge critically is the message our culture gives, not God. Thanks for the posts. We’ve made being pastor into a CEO position w/in a tax-free corporation. That is not obedience, and it isn’t spiritually healthy. Let us recall we are all responsible to examine ourselves to see if we remain in the faith according to sound doctrine.
Do not judge critically is the message our culture gives, not God. Thanks for the posts. We’ve made being pastor into a CEO position w/in a tax-free corporation. That is not obedience, and it isn’t spiritually healthy. Let us recall we are all responsible to examine ourselves to see if we remain in the faith according to sound doctrine.
Grace!
Grace!
Perhaps part of the problem is that the office of a “pastor” never existed in the New Testament. Church leadership was designed to be a plurality of Bishops (elders) working together with deacons to accomplish God’s plans. Where does this idea of a pastor at the top come from?
Perhaps part of the problem is that the office of a “pastor” never existed in the New Testament. Church leadership was designed to be a plurality of Bishops (elders) working together with deacons to accomplish God’s plans. Where does this idea of a pastor at the top come from?
Perhaps part of the problem is that the office of a “pastor” never existed in the New Testament. Church leadership was designed to be a plurality of Bishops (elders) working together with deacons to accomplish God’s plans. Where does this idea of a pastor at the top come from?
Try reading Ephesians. Chapter 4 verse 11. It specifically mentions ‘pastor’.
Agreed.
I’m concerned about guys like you who judge other’s spirituality. Do you personally know, I mean really personally know, say 10 pastors who are what you described? If not, then your ‘concerns’ are a reach at the least and phariseeism at the most. There is a better way.
I absolutely do know pastors in our region who practice these methods in their churches. I have attended their churches long enough to see all of the above with my own eyes over the course of time. I am not sure these pastors realize what they are doing and the negative impact it is having in multiplying anemic infantile followers who are not necessarily even true believers.
To my observation, using the parable of the seed and sower, they may be sowing just enough seed and watering just enough for thin weak belief to spring up– because the vast majority of these followers shrivel up under trial or persecution of any degree.
It takes the investment of time teaching the whole counsel of God’s Word and meaningful relationship with the individual to cultivate the soil of the human heart that the seed of the gospel might take root and produce a harvest. The same pastor preaching the message at the time it all *clicks* for a new believer when a decision is made to respond to the gospel may not be the same person who has cultivated the soil over a period of time, building relationship, witnessing and praying.
The litany of errors described in the article reflect much of what is being done to build big churches full of shallow belief in my region within the Bible Belt.
I thank the author for his insight and courage in calling out error that is hurting people who are so busy doing church that they cannot see why they do not know how to pray fervent or effectual prayers that avail anything.
If you take out the “I’m concerned with” it reads like a “How to do church manual” for some churches I’ve seen.
I’m going to jump on the don’t judge bandwagon that is prevailing today and say I’m surprised at how many posts are judging The Poached Egg for their stance. Not quite sure what is wrong with saying these are characteristics to be concerned about.
Ephesians 4:11 specifically mentions ‘pastor’, so I believe even in the New Testament times there was such a thing.
Matthew 15:8 -9 “This people honor me with their lips but their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me , for they teach commands of men as doctrine”
This is the problem they want to keep the congregation happy, make money, stay up to date, well the bible does not have a date so what if it is 2015 the bible is the same. As far as money Matthew 10:8 says “You receive free give free”
What did the writer do wrong? In a nutshell, all he said was that pastors need to return to the Gospel. They need to make disciples and preach the Gospel, which is that Jesus is Lord, that He died for your sins and for mine, He rose again, and He deserves our worship. The author is not being judgmental. He is giving his concerns about trends in church leadership. He never calls anyone out. How is this “Phariseeism??” He’s not telling anyone to do anything. I see more judgment in your post than in his, to be honest.
Please don’t be concerned, just do your bit and others do theirs.
I’m so sorry to have to intervene but I believe that we should all be ashamed. If there is someone who doesn’t know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, what would they think after reading these comments bretheren? Should we speak only because we have mouths? Should we say what we like because we have opinions? What about Jesus’ opinion? May the Good Lord forgive us for mocking His anointed ones. Listen, it doesn’t matter how guilty a servant of God may be, “Touch not the anointed”. King David understood this when he spared King Saul, even though Saul had wronged Him. David was truly a man after God’s heart. We must ask ourselves, “are we after God’s heart?” Let’s pray for the servants of God and Love one another so that the world may see Christ though that Love. Everything else, God has prepared a day to punish that which needs to be punished. B e blessed
Don’t forget Jesus is returning for a ‘glorious church’: Jacob had 2 brides because Jesus has 2 brides (the whole story is prophetic). The Body of Christ is already being divided into 2 groups of believers. This is why so much scrutiny is upon people in ministry right now (it’s coming from God), & so many people are getting offended so EASILY. You must decide which bride you’re going to be in, & recognize that there is leadership in each group (which means you can’t listen to everybody- since they’re not all going in the same direction). All believers are not going to be raptured, & there is preparation being made for each group’s future. As Jesus Himself warned,”Pray that you will be counted worthy to escape these things.” One note- #8 has been mentioned several times, & I think it confirms a problem I’ve tried to warn people about: we’re not supposed to take the Bible as a ‘rule book’, because it turns you into a Pharisee (they rejected Jesus specifically on the basis of scripture). You still have to ‘rightly divide the word of truth’- meaning you need to know what God had in mind when He inspired that verse (& sometimes you have to have fellowship to get that understanding).
PS- the comments are as good as the message (mostly!)
Made me do an introspection and I like learning from others I want to serve right in the house
Another is the pastor who refuses to rock the boat, who says, “Don’t try to fix it if it ain’t broke,” who is just maintaining the flock instead of actively making disciples.
I WROTE THIS POST TO YOU BACK IN MAY 2014 TRYING TO ALET YOU TO A DREAM I HAD ABOUT ME MAKING MOVIES OF ALL THE CHURCHES CLOSING ,,,
PS: THIS COMMENT WAS NEVER APPROVED Daniel Erline
May 5 ,2014
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Daniel Erline
tSsrpMaSuonsyodar mi5h, e2d014lui ·
…..Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Do people still go to churches to seek the true Jesus? I know I left them many many years ago. I have a daily minute by minute connection to Yahshua / Jesus my savior who gives me all I need. I recently had a dream where I was making a movie about all the churches that were closing. I then awoke and The Holy Spirit told me that people who have the Holy Spirit will meet with a few others of which some don’t and that will be the new way. It’s been my way for almost 30 years even though it took me until 2013 to actually get a visitation from ministering angels who cheered and celebrated Me… back into the fold.. They kept me up from 8pm til 2am last may 1st. Since that time satan has not had the hold on me like he previously had and my faith has increased immeasurably. Yes I do go to a online kinda church with one Robert lyte who holds teachings on youtube and facebook. There are a few who go but then again these are the end times and the churches / buildings have gone the way of the dinosaur.. Well the true churches.. the true church today is a body of believers who hold fast to the truth and stay filled with their oil so the thief who comes in the night is surprised we are ready. … Yes there are a few good small churches still teaching the truth. I went to one last year in ickesburg pa. may God bless you all and may you come to the knowledge of the truth.
https://www.scottpostma.net/2014/04/10/10-pastors-concerned-about/
THIS POST I WROTE IN 2014
https://www.facebook.com/daniel.erline.334491/posts/336299753200483
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9 years later, and the message is as relevant as ever. Great food for thought.
I am an attorney holding a very strong gift of prophecy, among others. I have practiced 50-years and specialize in ecclesiastical law. I have fought the PC churches and PC preachers for all of those years. I hold “non-head-preaching-pastors” in a different category to serve a different purpose. Most preachers, elder and bishops have fallen to the Johnson Amendment of 1954 and have lost their salt and the hard truths as a result of that very evil president. They then corrupt their flocks, and they become mere pew warmers. I have warmed them since 1985, exacerbating in 1989 when Holy Spirit started removing His restraints on evil.
I like your site and agree with your 10 concerns.
I also own a site which your welcome to checkout.
http://www.echurchreview.com
can I put a to your page on my site?
All the best, and Have a wonderful Christmas. Dr. Arthur George Scott
Amen, Amen and Amen. May God continue to richly your words and your blessings!
One of Houston’s largest churchs belongs to Joel Osteen. The building was once the home of
Houston’s bockets basketball team. have been to several rock concerts there.
A severe flood hit Houston several years ago. The mayor called Joel Osteen. He asked if the church could be used as an Emergency shelter. At first; Osteen reused. He changed his mind only after his refusal became a major tv news event.
That says a lot coming from a man who’s Servant of Jesus christ.
Scott, I have never heard anyone say things like this. Perhaps, you or someone else said this. I suspect decline in the church is far more complicated than this. However, you have offered some really helpful insights that all pastors should consider. Thank you for your wisdom!